I want to start with daw & need a keyboard controller. what do I need/want? new bee!

vale

I want to go daw this year. I have put it off for years & years & used hardware no matter what.
but I feel I’m missing out & despite being severely tech-phobic (don’t even have a smartphone) I think I need to brave it out. at least try it once, just to see.

I have worked out that this means I need a keyboard controller & spent time this afternoon browsing top10 lists on the webs & watching ytvids, taking note of names & features (possibles listed below).

but to be honest I’m am a new bee & virtually clueless. so thought I would ask here to see if anyone could give me a hint about what I should be looking for & maybe suggest reliable things.

my demands! I demand…

I spose around 50ish keys would do? 30ish seems minimal,  80plus poss overkill, but obviously better too many than not enough.
pads yes please. I have an alesis sr16 but it’s probably severely outdated, so something with drum pads is a must.
knobs useful too, to be fly on the fly.

basically I want to be able to do most things from the controller, not be juggling controller keyboard, mouse, pc keyboard. I’m ASD so too much info & too many choices & I freeze.
one unit with all things I might need to press & twiddle in action seems best.

software-wise I want to do everything  with open-source freeware (because I’m poor, ongoing).
I’m also super-wary of buying a controller that is initially cheap but then (apple-fashion) locks me into an expensive proprietorial system for full functionality, or cripples my options (out of brand spite) when I try to use it with non-proprietorial stuff.

what I have so far:

a basic desktop pc (prob dell, tba) of reasonable memory/speed. ms or linux, not mac OS.
a focusrite scarlett 2i2, which has some bundled downloads with (ableton etc). but am not committed to the hardware or the software, it’s just my starting point.
some midi compatible keys & pads, microkorg, volcabeats, alesis sr16, but only ever used into a 4 track zoom recorder. I’m so old school.

as for things I like the look of; akai mpk, m-audio oxygen, arturia minilab,  behringer u-control.

am thinking £70-100 ish used or new?

thankq for any ideas & recommendations ppl.

Flink_Poyd

Although it's not actually free you can evaluate Reaper (daw) for as long as you want, you just get a 5 second nag screen. Loads of videos on YouTube with tutorials


http://www.reaper.fm/

TheBigDipper

What sort of recording are you planning on doing? Demos where you play everything? Record a live band? Learn how to be a competent engineer for other musicians? 

How much of a pianist are you, BTW? 

I think that some extra info will inform the replies you get. Certainly mine, anyway... :-) 

TheBlueWolf

I can't help with the MIDI keyboard but I thoroughly recommend Reaper as a DAW.

Like Flink said, it's not free but all the features can still be used past the evaluation period which IIRC is 30 days

notanon

@Flink_Poyd +1for reaper!

tampadragon

Midi Keyboard wise, I have been looking at a few lately and I'm really taken by the M-Audio Code series. I can't offer first hand experience of it, but it's definitely worth a look.

equalsql

I definitely recommend Reaper. It's incredibly powerful and lightweight. If you opt for it I can also recommend the Nektar Panorama P4.  The P4's integration into Reaper is great. Arguably the most symbiotic relationship between a DAW and MIDI controller\keyboard there is. 

vale

TheBigDipper said:

What sort of recording are you planning on doing? Demos where you play everything? Record a live band? Learn how to be a competent engineer for other musicians? 

How much of a pianist are you, BTW? 

I think that some extra info will inform the replies you get. Certainly mine, anyway... :-) 

hey BD, thankq for the reply. as i said, i am fairly clueless about daw so i wasn't sure what info would be a factor & what would just be bogging down my op with rubbish, so i went for minimal-ish.
but more info if useful:

What sort of recording are you planning on doing? bedroom demos, ambient experiments, tracks completed as best as i can do them.

all my gear is cheap & basic-but-works grade; guitar/bass & valve amp (going to make dummy load), basic keys (microkorg/volcabass) & microburute, alesis elecdrums (kit/sr16 box).
& have a focusrite scarlett 2i2 with free bundled software. ableton lite maybe a limited trial version. & a basic DI box.

Demos where you play everything? yep. badly but with great expression. it's my art.

Record a live band? no. bedroom only & mostly DI as i live in a quiet rented hmo flat.

i may have a couple of things going at once sometimes (guitar & voice, or two differently placed mics on one thing), but 95% will be building up tracks onebyone.
there's a studio-rehearsal place 10mins walk away, so i could rent a room to record live&loud guitar/voice & mix with DI drums/keys at home. but that would be a luxury (2hours max a month) as funds tight. but an option to get big live guitar distortion.

Learn how to be a competent engineer for other musicians? no, for my own amusement only. aka self-abuse.

but what i do is very important to me even if other people don't like it, so i want to make things that are decently recorded at least (not a wall of hiss & crackling) in case i ever want to show anyone.

How much of a pianist are you, BTW? none, to be fair. i'm a guitarist who tiddles around with keys. I can make chord shapes with one hand & pick out melodies with one finger of the other. & obvs i find it easier to do one hand at a time (if that doesn't make me sound like a charity case).
i do find little keys fiddly & sometimes hit too many at once, but my budget means little keys may be the only option.

these are things i have been looking at.

this just out of range (£100 my max top, £75 is what i have really budgeted) but looks interesting. 50keys & 8 pads & lots of knobs. maybe able to find used.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Piano-Keyboard/Audio-Oxygen-49-Consignment-Production-Performance-Controls/B00IWU2CBA/ref=pd_vtph_267_tr_img_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=V3HEY3DVQM8W2HPAF9P2

this at other end of budget, 25keys but lots of pads & knobs.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/AKAI-Professional-MPK-Mini-Performance-ready/dp/B00IJ6QAO2/ref=pd_lpo_267_bs_t_2/253-4594612-9171626?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=JP32CXR3QHX0JDS5739P

thankq if you can recommend something to think about or hints about what criteria matter when choosing. this is all way off my map. analog head.

open source is my only real aim, as nofunds dictate. but reaper seems to cover that. have also looked at fruity loops. & ableton with the focusrite might be good.

vale

@Flink_Poyd & @TheBlueWolf & @notanon & @equalsql  ; thanq all for the positive reaper recommendations. that will be the first freeware thing i try then.

@tampadragon the 49 key m-audio oxygen i posted a link to above seems to be generally appreciated, though i am not sure if the reasons others appreciate it would be reasons that would make it good for me. that's what i'm trying to work out really.

TheBlueWolf

@vale ;

A guitar to USB cable may be a cheaper alternative to the Focusrite. I used one I bought from Maplin, for about £20 and it worked pretty well. 

On recording, don't beat yourself up over your recording quality You've got plenty of time to find your feet, so relax and try a few takes to see what happens. 

TheBigDipper

@vale  
I started my recording journey a year or two ago from a similar place and similar expertise/knowledge as you. I’ve learned a lot - especially what is and is not important when playing this game. I also learned that what I thought I wanted and what I actually used once I had it are different things. Thanks for fleshing out the picture in your recent post. As always, take the skewed opinions of a friendly stranger with a pinch of salt… 

Computer:  Make sure you have at least two USB sockets. Lots of kit will not work properly if you try and use a USB hub. You’ll need one for the Focusrite and one for the keyboard controller.

DAW:  Any DAW is fine when you’re getting started. Reaper is well-liked (I’ve never used it). Ableton is fine with a different workflow that some love and some don’t. I use GarageBand and Logic Pro, because I’m in the Applesphere. Just pick one and get started!

You can change later on when you’ve got some personal opinions about the one you’re using to help you decide what you really need in a DAW. I, for example, am finding Logic gives me more functionality than I need and forces me to make too many choices. I can be just as productive most of the time with GarageBand. I’m seriously thinking of reverting back to GB. 

Audio Interface:  The Focusrite is more than fine. 

MIDI:  You probably know this already, but very briefly…  MIDI devices often have 3 MIDI ports as well as (or instead of) a MIDI USB port. They are 5-pin DIN-style sockets. 

MIDI In is the port that receives the MIDI commands which tell your device what to do - change a channel, run a drum pattern, etc.  MIDI Out is the port that sends MIDI commands to tell another device what to do - play this note on the software synth in your computer, alter the volume on a fader, etc. 
MIDI Thru is a port that you use to connect a second MIDI device to your setup so that the MIDI commands it sends are not acted upon by the first device you’ve attached it to but just passed through to the next one. Some devices double up and the MIDI In or MIDI Out is also the MIDI Thru port. 

If you want to connect a device to your computer that only has MIDI sockets, you can a MIDI-to-USB converter cable. This might be a good idea for connecting your SR-16, as it can be used as a MIDI controller - using the pads to play software drums, for example. You could also do the same with your MicroKorg, I believe, so maybe you don’t need another keyboard yet. 

Controllers: I did read what you wrote about a single controller that does it all - control the DAW, play pads, play the keyboard, etc. Originally, I owned an Alesis M-25. That was a very simple 25 key keyboard with two programmable control wheels and one fader. I used it for everything - recording keyboard parts, hitting piano keys to trigger drums, etc. I didn’t use it to control the DAW because it couldn’t. 

When it broke, I bought an M-Audio Code 49. More keys for piano playing (I don’t play piano, but…). Faders to control the DAW mixer. Pads to play drum parts. Tape transport controls to pause/play/record. Rotary controls to do panning. X-Y pads for whatever…  I found that, for me, it wasn’t any better than using the mouse to do most of this stuff (I do use the pads to play drum parts, but none of the other functions). I would use a fader to set a volume control on the DAW but still spend time looking at the computer screen to see what it was doing. I was quicker just using the mouse.

So, despite initially wanting the integrated controller that you want, in practice I don’t use it like that. As a one man unit recording one track at a time, I really don’t spend any time “flying” the desk making adjustments. 

My advice (if the MicroKorg won’t work for you as a controller) is to buy a really cheap 25 note MIDI keyboard and use that for as much as you can. If the keys are smaller than standard it probably won’t matter because you’re not a pianist. If any clumsy fingers make mistakes, you can edit the MIDI file on your DAW afterwards. That’s what I do for note errors and timing errors. 

If that keyboard has proper MIDI sockets and one of them supports MIDI Thru, you should be able to connect your SR-16 to it and use that for pads - yet still only have one USB cable into the computer.

Hope this helps, amigo, and that the 30 mins it took me to write it will save you lots more time and anguish than that! Good luck!

John_A

Shameless plug time

A 49key midi controller with a  free synth and a soundcard - flexible on price

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/96648/novation-xiosynth#latest

benmurray85

Hi @vale you sound like you're in a very similar situation, and of a similar level of numpty ability to me ;-) no offence!!!

i use reaper and the Scarlett 2i2 for some pretty decent results at home. If you want any advice or help or whatever concerning these two then give me a shout. I may have spent hiurs pouring over the same problem and if I can save you some time then great!

the only thing I would say is great as he Scarlett is (I bloody love it!) you will eventually (sooner rather than later!) find yourself hankering for more inputs so just bear that in mind!

notanon

I did the music production course from Berklee it is course 2 here: https://www.coursera.org/specializations/music-production it was free I think still is. Recommended if you have not used a DAW etc before. He uses something like Prologic but I have translated the methods over to Reaper and Ableton and Cubase quite easily. 

normula1

I'm new to this myself and am also using the Scarlett 2i2. If you have the 1st Gen, you can use the 2nd Gen drivers (only on the 2i2 and 4i2 I believe) and that reduces the latency somewhat.
I've been using the bundled Ableton Live Lite so far with some freeware amp sims and impulse responses (search for Ignite Amps) and the sounds are quite reasonable. I've stolen my son's old Yamaha keyboard as a MIDI controller for keys so that's working out too. 
Hopefully you've registered the 2i2 as you get free bundles each month.

wave100

All good advice so far, however Reaper isn't freeware - you can just use it in demo mode without restriction! It will give you a nag screen until you pay for it. It's pretty cheap though. There are freeware DAWs around, eg I think there is a free version of Studio 1. As far as I know the version of Ableton you have is not a demo version but a "cut down" version of the full program - Ableton is good for loop based composition so if you are into dance type stuff so might be worth installing it and giving it a whirl. You can also download a trial version of the full program. While reaper is a good program, the more expensive DAWs tend to come with more content like samples, loops and VIs which might be a consideration for you. 

notanon

Should be fie with reaper for VSTs and things? Not sure of loops but MT Powerkit 2 drums are free, Pianos, synths, . . . .  I've not struggled so far.

TheBlueWolf

VST Planet is your friend for free virtual instruments, plugins, etc

http://www.vstplanet.com/

hubobulous

Shameless plug. My USB interface is for sale. Been using it with Reaper for ages and has great performance/low latency. Only selling due to now having more inputs on a new device 

TimmyO

The perfectly excellent 'couple versions previous to the current version' of Tracktion is a free DAW - can heartily recommend it, it's the one that got me in to home studio stuff. 

Free one is version 5. I happily paid good money for versions 2 and 3 back in the day!

https://www.tracktion.com/products/t5-daw

TimmyO