Martin McGuinness RIP

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  • GoldenEraGuitarsGoldenEraGuitars Frets: 8820
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    robgilmo said:


    I think we have to consider as well that things changed dramatically in NIreland between the 60's and 90's, and there were bastards on both sides and innocent people on both sides being killed, and its not a case of ''without one side the other wouldn't exist''. This man soon realised that someone had to change things and peoples attitudes were so strong and deeply set that change wouldn't be easy. I'll bet quite a few people were not happy about the path he took either, which could have went horribly wrong for him.
    Correct. The hardcore republican movement still exists here and you can guarentee that he was a marked man. 

    Incidentally... I served Brian Shivers in our shop last year (massarene barracks murders). Whether or not he was connected to the getaway car is another story but I felt odd dealing with him. While it is safe here there are constant reminders of the past.
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  • robgilmorobgilmo Frets: 3359
    lonestar said:
    robgilmo said:


    I think we have to consider as well that things changed dramatically in NIreland between the 60's and 90's, and there were bastards on both sides and innocent people on both sides being killed, and its not a case of ''without one side the other wouldn't exist''. This man soon realised that someone had to change things and peoples attitudes were so strong and deeply set that change wouldn't be easy. I'll bet quite a few people were not happy about the path he took either, which could have went horribly wrong for him.
    Correct. The hardcore republican movement still exists here and you can guarentee that he was a marked man. 

    Incidentally... I served Brian Shivers in our shop last year (massarene barracks murders). Whether or not he was connected to the getaway car is another story but I felt odd dealing with him. While it is safe here there are constant reminders of the past.

    When I was home last it was odd to see people still painted kerb stones and flew flags, I moved away just before the ceasefire and somehow thought that as peace came the norm flag flying and kerb stone painting would somehow become a thing of the past. Do people still march for no apparent reason other than to wind up the opposition?
    A Deuce , a Tele and a cup of tea.
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  • TimmyOTimmyO Frets: 7350
    At different points his defence to whatever the dire deed being investigated at the time varied from "I am not in the IRA", "I have never been in the IRA", "That was a different branch of the IRA", "I didn't know that thing in particular was about to happen"

    Let's not forget too that the 'political violence' was also set against the same organisations practising 'general organised crime violence'. 

    And the suggestion that it was all 6 and 2 threes is naive. 

    That said, is is true that his personal involvement carried a significant part of the peace process - by that point it being HIM was important (because he was a bit of a hero to other bloodthirsty murderers, so could persuade them), whereas back in the day, any old tom dick or harry could have filled his roles.

    So it's complicated. 

    I think if the Queen can bury her own emotions and shake his hand, then those of us less directly affected should probably be able to do something similar. 
    Red ones are better. 
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  • ReverendReverend Frets: 4974
    One of my Mum's best friends was held hostage by him back in the 70s. She was a nurse at a hospitaland they refused to hand over a patient. 



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  • GoldenEraGuitarsGoldenEraGuitars Frets: 8820
    tFB Trader
    robgilmo said:
    lonestar said:
    robgilmo said:


    I think we have to consider as well that things changed dramatically in NIreland between the 60's and 90's, and there were bastards on both sides and innocent people on both sides being killed, and its not a case of ''without one side the other wouldn't exist''. This man soon realised that someone had to change things and peoples attitudes were so strong and deeply set that change wouldn't be easy. I'll bet quite a few people were not happy about the path he took either, which could have went horribly wrong for him.
    Correct. The hardcore republican movement still exists here and you can guarentee that he was a marked man. 

    Incidentally... I served Brian Shivers in our shop last year (massarene barracks murders). Whether or not he was connected to the getaway car is another story but I felt odd dealing with him. While it is safe here there are constant reminders of the past.

    When I was home last it was odd to see people still painted kerb stones and flew flags, I moved away just before the ceasefire and somehow thought that as peace came the norm flag flying and kerb stone painting would somehow become a thing of the past. Do people still march for no apparent reason other than to wind up the opposition?
    Where did you live mate? Yes, we're about to hit the marching again. Seeing as I'm Scottish I really don't "get it". But it's in the culture so I doubt it'll fade away anytime soon.

    I hate the kerbs and flags. It's only part of a certain social mindset though. Thankfully we have no painted kerbstones near us 
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  • robgilmorobgilmo Frets: 3359
    Bangor first then sadly Newry, people say Newry has changed, it being a city and all that but I just cant help seeing it the same way I did when I grew up there. I never got the whole marching thing either, just a way to wind people up I reckon. It is a cultural thing I guess and the reasons why these things happen may not come into play much now, I dunno. I cant say I miss it, I do miss my family, Tayto crisps, Club Orange, The Mourns, batch loaves and decent sized sodas, They changed the size of soda bread over here to something so small there simply isn't any point.
    A Deuce , a Tele and a cup of tea.
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  • EvilmagsEvilmags Frets: 5158
    lonestar said:
    robgilmo said:
    lonestar said:
    robgilmo said:


    I think we have to consider as well that things changed dramatically in NIreland between the 60's and 90's, and there were bastards on both sides and innocent people on both sides being killed, and its not a case of ''without one side the other wouldn't exist''. This man soon realised that someone had to change things and peoples attitudes were so strong and deeply set that change wouldn't be easy. I'll bet quite a few people were not happy about the path he took either, which could have went horribly wrong for him.
    Correct. The hardcore republican movement still exists here and you can guarentee that he was a marked man. 

    Incidentally... I served Brian Shivers in our shop last year (massarene barracks murders). Whether or not he was connected to the getaway car is another story but I felt odd dealing with him. While it is safe here there are constant reminders of the past.

    When I was home last it was odd to see people still painted kerb stones and flew flags, I moved away just before the ceasefire and somehow thought that as peace came the norm flag flying and kerb stone painting would somehow become a thing of the past. Do people still march for no apparent reason other than to wind up the opposition?
    Where did you live mate? Yes, we're about to hit the marching again. Seeing as I'm Scottish I really don't "get it". But it's in the culture so I doubt it'll fade away anytime soon.

    I hate the kerbs and flags. It's only part of a certain social mindset though. Thankfully we have no painted kerbstones near us 
    There are marches in Scotland´s western parts and quite a few English towns too, but they don´t get much coverage. Glasgow, Lanrk, Ayr and Renfreshire all have major Orange Order lodges. I also know of at least two provo bars in Glasgow and one in London. The bigotry is not gone, just got older and a bit more hidden. 
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  • GoldenEraGuitarsGoldenEraGuitars Frets: 8820
    tFB Trader
    Evilmags said:
    lonestar said:
    robgilmo said:
    lonestar said:
    robgilmo said:


    I think we have to consider as well that things changed dramatically in NIreland between the 60's and 90's, and there were bastards on both sides and innocent people on both sides being killed, and its not a case of ''without one side the other wouldn't exist''. This man soon realised that someone had to change things and peoples attitudes were so strong and deeply set that change wouldn't be easy. I'll bet quite a few people were not happy about the path he took either, which could have went horribly wrong for him.
    Correct. The hardcore republican movement still exists here and you can guarentee that he was a marked man. 

    Incidentally... I served Brian Shivers in our shop last year (massarene barracks murders). Whether or not he was connected to the getaway car is another story but I felt odd dealing with him. While it is safe here there are constant reminders of the past.

    When I was home last it was odd to see people still painted kerb stones and flew flags, I moved away just before the ceasefire and somehow thought that as peace came the norm flag flying and kerb stone painting would somehow become a thing of the past. Do people still march for no apparent reason other than to wind up the opposition?
    Where did you live mate? Yes, we're about to hit the marching again. Seeing as I'm Scottish I really don't "get it". But it's in the culture so I doubt it'll fade away anytime soon.

    I hate the kerbs and flags. It's only part of a certain social mindset though. Thankfully we have no painted kerbstones near us 
    There are marches in Scotland´s western parts and quite a few English towns too, but they don´t get much coverage. Glasgow, Lanrk, Ayr and Renfreshire all have major Orange Order lodges. I also know of at least two provo bars in Glasgow and one in London. The bigotry is not gone, just got older and a bit more hidden. 
    Yeah but thankfully I'm from Edinburgh so I didn't see any of that.
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  • EvilmagsEvilmags Frets: 5158
    lonestar said:
    Evilmags said:
    lonestar said:
    robgilmo said:
    lonestar said:
    robgilmo said:


    I think we have to consider as well that things changed dramatically in NIreland between the 60's and 90's, and there were bastards on both sides and innocent people on both sides being killed, and its not a case of ''without one side the other wouldn't exist''. This man soon realised that someone had to change things and peoples attitudes were so strong and deeply set that change wouldn't be easy. I'll bet quite a few people were not happy about the path he took either, which could have went horribly wrong for him.
    Correct. The hardcore republican movement still exists here and you can guarentee that he was a marked man. 

    Incidentally... I served Brian Shivers in our shop last year (massarene barracks murders). Whether or not he was connected to the getaway car is another story but I felt odd dealing with him. While it is safe here there are constant reminders of the past.

    When I was home last it was odd to see people still painted kerb stones and flew flags, I moved away just before the ceasefire and somehow thought that as peace came the norm flag flying and kerb stone painting would somehow become a thing of the past. Do people still march for no apparent reason other than to wind up the opposition?
    Where did you live mate? Yes, we're about to hit the marching again. Seeing as I'm Scottish I really don't "get it". But it's in the culture so I doubt it'll fade away anytime soon.

    I hate the kerbs and flags. It's only part of a certain social mindset though. Thankfully we have no painted kerbstones near us 
    There are marches in Scotland´s western parts and quite a few English towns too, but they don´t get much coverage. Glasgow, Lanrk, Ayr and Renfreshire all have major Orange Order lodges. I also know of at least two provo bars in Glasgow and one in London. The bigotry is not gone, just got older and a bit more hidden. 
    Yeah but thankfully I'm from Edinburgh so I didn't see any of that.
    Me too. even the Masons have died down a lot in Edinburgh. They used to have some power. Souther Ireland becoming rich and secular is probably the biggest reason it has died a death. In the 50s and early 60s Scotland was a much more Calvinist country and people were terrified of suffering the poverty Ireland did when it was run by religious types. That fear is gone now and with it a lot of the bigotry it inspired.
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  • marantz1300marantz1300 Frets: 3107
    my mum got beaten up ,with lumps of wood for being an Irish whore.
     because of the hyde park bomb.
    we were living in London.
     the hatred was everywhere.
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  • marantz1300marantz1300 Frets: 3107
    BTW
     bloody sunday and the hunger strikes severly escalated the troubles.
     Read the IRA by Tim Pat Cougan for a in depth knolage of the IRA from 1916 to the 90's
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  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 26460
    Snap said:

    I have mixed views on the IRA. They were/are a terrorist organisation that carried out some terrible murders and brutal crimes, but they arose from a position of persecution.
    Show me a terrorist who didn't use that as their excuse.
    <space for hire>
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  • GoldenEraGuitarsGoldenEraGuitars Frets: 8820
    tFB Trader
    The unfortunate history of Ireland extends beyond the birth of the IRA. Perhaps the IRA were wrong, just as the British army were wrong to get the UDA, LVF and UVF to carry out their dirty work. 

    The Irish were subjected to horrendous crimes at the hand of the Brits when they were continuously invaded over the centuries. The only difference here, in modern times, is that bombing became the main method of attack. The brutality of war was on our doorsteps. Thankfully, those days have gone. But both sides have a lot of innocent lives to answer for. 
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  • GoldenEraGuitarsGoldenEraGuitars Frets: 8820
    tFB Trader
    BTW
     bloody sunday and the hunger strikes severly escalated the troubles.
     Read the IRA by Tim Pat Cougan for a in depth knolage of the IRA from 1916 to the 90's
    I know the family of one of the hunger strikers. The funeral cortège was diverted into heavily loyalist areas by the then RUC (police force that was mainly Protestant) and the hearse was set upon. The attackers tried to steal the coffin too. 
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  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 26460
    What makes me wonder about his involvement is that he publicly lied about his association with the IRA on at least one occasion (possibly two).

    1973 - "I'm a member of (the IRA) and very, very proud of it"
    1993 - "I have never been in the IRA. I don't have any sway over the IRA"
    2005 - "I was no longer a member of the IRA at that time" (talking about Enniskillen)

    Let's not also forget that even Gerry Adams wanted a ceasefire after Enniskillen because of the political fallout, and McGuinness was against it (from what I recall).

    His later efforts are laudable but they don't make up for his prior actions, in the same way that a murderer isn't forgiven just because he had a change of heart later on.
    <space for hire>
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  • marantz1300marantz1300 Frets: 3107
    edited March 2017
    Snap said:

    I have mixed views on the IRA. They were/are a terrorist organisation that carried out some terrible murders and brutal crimes, but they arose from a position of persecution.
    Show me a terrorist who didn't use that as their excuse.

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  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 26460
    @marantz1300 - that link doesn't work, but presuming the content from the URL...I'm not saying the British Empire was blameless (I'm fully aware of the sordid history of the Empire). However, they were an invading force, not terrorists.
    <space for hire>
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601
    BTW
     bloody sunday and the hunger strikes severly escalated the troubles.
     Read the IRA by Tim Pat Cougan for a in depth knolage of the IRA from 1916 to the 90's
    There was a BBC documentary on BBC about the troubles - members of the IRA were interviewed and prior to Bloody Sunday they were about to throw the towel in and call it a day. The membership had slumped, there was no cash and little support in the streets for armed struggle. On the evening of Bloody Sunday the IRA was inundated with requests to join and cash and guns started flowing from the USA soon after. Putting the paras on the streets was a bad move.

    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
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  • GoldenEraGuitarsGoldenEraGuitars Frets: 8820
    tFB Trader
    @marantz1300 - that link doesn't work, but presuming the content from the URL...I'm not saying the British Empire was blameless (I'm fully aware of the sordid history of the Empire). However, they were an invading force, not terrorists.
    The word "terrorist", in relation to the IRA, was one bestowed upon them by the British. It seems that once a government decides to invade that is okay... should the opposing forces fight back they are then branded terrorists. 


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  • robgilmorobgilmo Frets: 3359
    @marantz1300 - that link doesn't work, but presuming the content from the URL...I'm not saying the British Empire was blameless (I'm fully aware of the sordid history of the Empire). However, they were an invading force, not terrorists.

    But they were terrorists, and not very nice terrorists at that.
    A Deuce , a Tele and a cup of tea.
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