Mixers for IEMs

digitalscream · July 2017

I honestly have no idea where to put this, so Live is about as close as it gets.

Anyway, at the obscenely loud gig last night, the topic of IEMs came up, and I'm taking it upon myself to look into the possibility of an IEM system for the whole band, where we can control each individual IEM mix. With that in mind, I know we're going to need splitters for the vocal mics (three vocalists), probably a mic on the kick and one overhead for the drums, a mic in front of each guitar cab and a line in from the bass DI.

We'll all sort out our own IEMs and belt packs, so I'm just looking for a mixer.

Requirements:

1 - Can't be too costly.
2 - Analogue or digital is cool
3 - Prefer rack for convenience if possible
4 - Needs five stereo outs in total
5 - 10 inputs (9 of which need to have mic preamps, although we could go with one that has just 8 and use an outboard preamp for the other one if it makes it significantly cheaper)

Any ideas? I'm clueless with this sort of thing.

kennedydream1980 · July 2017

The 1st generation Presonus desks will cover all your needs. I have a similar setup in my band and we use the Presonus 16.4.2. They can be picked up for good prices 2nd hand.

digitalscream · July 2017

kennedydream1980 said:

The 1st generation Presonus desks will cover all your needs. I have a similar setup in my band and we use the Presonus 16.4.2. They can be picked up for good prices 2nd hand.

Cheers...unfortunately, I suspect your idea of "good prices" differs from my band's. I should've said that if it costs more than £350-ish, it's unlikely to fly

kennedydream1980 · July 2017

You could pick up a Yamaha 01v for around that price, they sound good and will cover what you need as well.

digitalscream · July 2017

Ta, @kennedydream1980 - I'll have a look.

I suppose an alternative to getting a hella-expensive mixer that can do it all in one would be to get a couple of cheaper rack mixers and somehow split the incoming signals to go to both, thus providing all the necessary monitor mixes.

Or...even do it with a laptop, an interface with a bunch of outputs and a copy of Reaper...not sure if the latency would be too much (could get it down to about 2ms).

Danny1969 · July 2017

These days people don't tend to use splitters ..... more like band into digital desk then each band member has 2 aux sends for their stereo IEM feed ... which they can control from their phone ..... to do it any other way means a lot of equipment and a lot more hassle

I say digital desk simply because affordable analog desks won't have the amount of aux sends you need and can't be controlled remotely via your phone

If your not used to IEM's then it can be quite a shock, especially if your doing it on the cheap with mono sends and no ambient mics

It's not cheap to buy a digital mixer but there are some cheap options if you can put up with mono IEM's, Behringer X18 is quite affordable ... A&H QU-SB would be my pick

digitalscream · July 2017

All taken on board...ta.

I suppose I should also have mentioned (and considered) - we generally play somewhere in the middle of multi-band gigs. That means we don't have full control of the desk (or any control, actually), so we're pretty much reliant on getting set up in 10 minutes while the last band's packing away. I suspect that might make this a bit impractical.

I'm starting to think I might say "sod the rest of the band" and just sort out a solution for myself; they're all pretty cheap anyway, so I doubt they'd want to shell out for a system which would work properly.

New theory - get a stereo (or mono, I suppose) feed from the main desk and an extra mic in front of my cab, feed both into a small mixer on my board and adjust to taste, out to a pair of in-ears (probably with a wireless pack in between).

Total outlay of £almostbuggerall, and I get to avoid making my tinnitus worse while still being able to hear the band.

The only problem I can see with that is phase - small mixers tend not to have a phase invert option. There's a Sontronics inline XLR phase inverter (and pad), but that's £50...which seems a little excessive. Still, not exactly bank-breaking.

octatonic · July 2017

Make sure you use a limiter- I've been blasted by clumsy engineers in the past.
"Adapt-ear" is a good system but it is £190 just for the limiter itself.
Cheaper than being deaf though.

Danny1969 · July 2017

You need a Dr Watson IEM combiner, separate controls for vocal, guitar, PA mix and ambient, no batteries, high quality stereo amp to run your IEM's ...... only drawback is you can't be wireless as it uses a combiner cable for your guitar and IEM's

Above is the prototype, this unit will be in use at Sundown Festival in Portsmouth this coming weekend because at festivals you don't get time for a decent soundcheck and this puts the most important things .. your vocal, your guitar and the ambient level entirely under your control. The soundman can implode for all you care, you will still have your vocal and guitar in your ears at the volume you have set. Designed to be the first pedal on your board but there's an amp top version for players (like me) who don't use pedals

digitalscream · July 2017

@Danny1969 - yeah, that's almost exactly what I was thinking of. Is that you making those?

EDIT: And exactly how "proprietary" is that combiner cable? Looks like it's a bit of an awkward one to replace.

Danny1969 · July 2017

digitalscream said:

@Danny1969 - yeah, that's almost exactly what I was thinking of. Is that you making those?

Yes it's something I originally made for myself, then sold quite a few to other people. Originally it was just a replacement for regular wireless IEM systems but then I added a transformer splitter for the vocal and another dedicated stereo input for guitar ... mainly because I was thinking about the new breed of Helix, AxeFX \ Kemper guys who weren't using any backline and really were at the mercy of soundguys
I'm going to be testing the new unit over the next couple of weeks and then the design is going to a manufacturing company in Southampton for production .... Price wise I'm guessing about £130

digitalscream · July 2017

Danny1969 said:

digitalscream said:

@Danny1969 - yeah, that's almost exactly what I was thinking of. Is that you making those?

Yes it's something I originally made for myself, then sold quite a few to other people. Originally it was just a replacement for regular wireless IEM systems but then I added a transformer splitter for the vocal and another dedicated stereo input for guitar ... mainly because I was thinking about the new breed of Helix, AxeFX \ Kemper guys who weren't using any backline and really were at the mercy of soundguys
I'm going to be testing the new unit over the next couple of weeks and then the design is going to a manufacturing company in Southampton for production .... Price wise I'm guessing about £130

That sounds cool. As I said, though...what does the combiner cable consist of (I don't recognise the connector), and how difficult are they to get hold of?

Also...any ground loop issues, or are the relevant ins/outs isolated?

Danny1969 · July 2017

digitalscream said:

Danny1969 said:

digitalscream said:

@Danny1969 - yeah, that's almost exactly what I was thinking of. Is that you making those?

Yes it's something I originally made for myself, then sold quite a few to other people. Originally it was just a replacement for regular wireless IEM systems but then I added a transformer splitter for the vocal and another dedicated stereo input for guitar ... mainly because I was thinking about the new breed of Helix, AxeFX \ Kemper guys who weren't using any backline and really were at the mercy of soundguys
I'm going to be testing the new unit over the next couple of weeks and then the design is going to a manufacturing company in Southampton for production .... Price wise I'm guessing about £130

That sounds cool. As I said, though...what does the combiner cable consist of (I don't recognise the connector), and how difficult are they to get hold of?

Also...any ground loop issues, or are the relevant ins/outs isolated?

The connector is a standard 5 pin XLR, the cable however is my own design which is wired in a certain way and not something you can buy over the counter on a Saturday afternoon before a gig. It is extremely robust though and I haven't broke one in the last 4 years which for me is maybe 450 to 500 gigs

There's no ground loops as the guitar side of things is isolated, the vocal split if transformer based and the IEM amp isn't connected to any common ground

digitalscream · July 2017

Right then, that pretty much covers it. Seems like you and I are going to need to talk...probably in September the way things are looking, unless some of my stuff magically sells.

PolarityMan · July 2017

We've been using a behringer XR16 for a while now and its great, it doesnt have 5 stereo aux's (4 mono plus 1 stereo) so we're l;iving with mono IEM signals but its such a huge improvement!

PolarityMan · July 2017

oh yeah get the shure earbuds too, i have 315's and the toher guitarist has 215s ...both awesome.

smigeon · July 2017

I've been in contact with @Danny1969 about his Dr Watson thing and it looks ideal to me. It sits on your pedalboard and gives a custom mix of your own guitar, vocal mic and whatever-more-or-less-useful feed you can get from your band's main mixer. The other feature I really like is that it contains built-in ambient mics (also mixable) so you can hear what other people are saying to you between songs, and also hopefully also hear enough of the other instruments to make a positive difference while playing.

As @digitalscream mentions, the custom cable might be seen as a disadvantage. But for me this in only an apparent downside as carrying a backup is not hard. And you don't need to worry about batteries/charging. Another *possible* downside that occurs to me is that, because you are hearing your own vocal straight from your mic, you don't get the opportunity to sweeten it with a bit of reverb or whatever for your own benefit (I sing better when I think I sound good :-)). But as I've not tried it yet, this also might be more of an apparent downside than a real one.

But overall I love the concept of Danny's device. It's a touch of genius to run the IEM cable along the guitar lead. No more tethering than what we're already used to with playing the guitar - all we need to do is plug our IEM set in to a socket at the guitar end of our guitar lead. Also, with the device being a pedal, once it's on your pedal board, that end is almost set up too. All you need to do is plug in a few leads (mic in, mic out to mixer, guitar amp DI in, guitar amp DI out to mixer, incoming feed from mixer) and you're done. To my mind it's actually *easier* than a wireless solution - and a lot cheaper.

Also, the device has a built-in limiter, so (assuming it's set up right!) your hearing is protected.

I'm having one from Danny as soon as they're available.

kennedydream1980 · July 2017

I run one of these on my pedalboard. Similar idea to Danny's box. I just made up my own cable. I cable tied a good quality headphone extension cable (cost about £15) to my guitar cable. So the end of the headphone extension cable where I plug my earphones in, ends up just to the side of my guitars strap button.

I run a Jack to XLR lead from an aux on the desk to the Behringer P1. I have my own taylored monitor mix from the desk. Everything is mic'd on our gigs so I find I don't need an ambient mic.

http://www.dv247.com/studio-equipment/behringer-powerplay-p1-in-ear-monitor-amplifier--207549

smigeon · July 2017

Yes, @kennedydream1980, the Behringer P1 does look good, as does the slightly-more-expensive-but-smaller LD Systems box: https://www.andertons.co.uk/p/LDHPA1/audio-solutions/ld-systems-hpa1-headphone-and-wired-iem-amplifier?LGWCODE=LDHPA1;56375;6335&gclid=Cj0KEQjwwLHLBRDEq9DQxK2I_p8BEiQA3UDVDjFQTch22dWXGXlrFieaS-UfFWfYCKdS5ZcWkcRLZAYaAnkF8P8HAQ. Both of these allow the trick of running the IEM headphone lead alongside the guitar lead, for a cheap-but-good wired IEM solution, and both have limiters to protect your ears.

To my mind, however, the Dr Watson box (@Danny1969) box wins out - especially for the guy who (like me) is the lead singer AND the main guitarist in the band - and/or also if your band has a not-very-good main mixer and/or you don't trust the sound guy to give you a decent IEM mix.

This is because Danny's device has much better connectivity. In particular, it has 3 inputs (some stereo), whereas the Behringer/LD has only a single (stereo) input and nothing else. And it also has "thru" connectors for the guitar and mic inputs, which lets you tap your own mic and guitar on their way to the main mixer, so you have LOCAL control of your IEM mix. And you also, of course, have the 3rd input for an IEM mix (stereo) from the main mixer, like the Behringer. And the guitar input and thru are also stereo, so the device can, e.g., do justice to the stereo out from a Helix.

Danny's device also has built-in stereo mics to provide room ambience, giving you a 4th input to your personal monitor mix. Although I've not tried it yet, it makes sense to me that room ambience would be a very nice feature if you can't rely on everything being mic'd up on some gigs.

Trude · July 2017

Hey @Danny1969 - do you have a web page or a spec sheet on your Dr Watson that I could share? I know a few guys who would likely be very interested.

It could work well for me too. The only issue is that for some of my gigs I use an old Variax (Tele transplant) which only works with the phantom power over TRS (battery power doesn't work). Could your unit potentially either supply that power voltage or work downstream of the Variax powered AB box? This has to be first in my chain currently.

Danny1969 · July 2017

@Trude I can make a version which supplies phantom, what voltage does the Variax need ?

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