Question about cable capacitance and pedal order

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Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
So I'm trying to fit the behemoth of a foot controller that came with my Deizel on my board. But I just have too many pedals. I could probably just manage it if I switched my cables over to the pancake jack ones I made. The cable is Mogami W2319.

I stopped using them at one point, because they were causing my tone to get completely fucked - complete loss of high end and level. I am assuming some sort of capacitance or cable length issue. Using one of them at a time is fine, but stacking them up results in tonal molestation of the highest order.

I'm wondering if there is an ideal way to arrange my pedals so that this doesn't happen, utilising the buffers in the Boss pedals to keep the signal buffered. Any thoughts??

here is what I have:
Boss TU-2 (Buffered)
2x Boss DD-7 (Buffered)
Hardwire phaser (True Bypass)
Hardwire reverb (True Bypass)
Ernie Ball Vol. Jnr (True Bypass I guess??)
Budda Wah (True Bypass)
Boo Instruments TS808 Clone (True Bypass)

Or is this just a complete non-starter do you think? I can't put anymore pedals on the board, just don't have the room. I could have the amp footswitch on the floor, but it's pretty big and bulky... I'm trying to do this basically:

image
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Comments

  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71956
    Wah > TU-2 > then it doesn't matter.

    The EB volume pedal is a tone-sucker, not true bypass unfortunately - but if it goes after any buffer it will be fine. The only reason for putting the wah before the TU-2 is because some wahs can sound a bit shrill after a buffer, but you could try it anyway and see if it does.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    Hmm, yeah I generally always have had the tuner after the wah. I'm pretty sure in that exact setup, with these particular patch cables (ones I made, but even if I swap them around or use others) it does the whole tone suck level loss thing. I'll give it a go tomorrow and get some up to date info.
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  • Also, don't quote me on this but I think the Hardwire pedals have a switchable buffer.  So if you want to experiment more, you can open them up and switch that on.  

    Best doublecheck that is the case, though.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71956
    Drew_fx said:
    tone suck level loss
    Ah - two different problems! This is not splitting hairs, it's important and explains why some people don't get on with Boss pedals (or at least one of the reasons :) ).

    Tone suck is the loss of top-end caused by cable capacitance (or old-fashioned half-arsed bypass pedals, which the EB would count as if it had a switch). This can be cured by a buffer.

    But there's an insidious problem with Boss and most other buffered pedals - the buffers aren't quite unity gain, and there is a small level loss through the pedal. You don't notice it with just one, but add up several in series and you do - and initially, the human ear perceives a small volume loss as a loss of tone quality, not volume for some reason! So if you have several Boss pedals you'll hear an apparent loss of both top and bottom end.

    So really, the solution is a buffer at the start and then true-bypass pedals - or loopers if you want to keep the Boss pedals, but it looks like you may not have room for that. If not, a preset boost that you leave engaged all the time might help.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    Hmmm. This isn't a "subtle" thing though, this is all out fuckin' armageddon tonal warfare.Mustard gas type shit. If I use my regular patch cables (the ones with big fat cable, and REAN jacks) then I can have the pedals in literally any order and I wont experience any tone suck or volume loss.

    But with my pancake jack cables, I can't utilise them. I'll have a play around and try to figure out why it's happening.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71956
    Sounds like you have at least one pancake plug cable with a partial short in it. That will both suck tone and volume, massively and possibly even after a buffer. Try them one at a time and see if there's one which is much worse than the others.

    If it's all of them then they're just shit :).

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    edited February 2014
    So interestingly, if I use one regular REAN cable from the wah to the tuner, then that gets rid of the tone suck. The volume loss is still there, but we can put that down to the three Boss pedals I have on the board. So it's something to do with my wah pedal I think. Going into the front of the Hardwire phaser or my Boss tuner with any of the pancake jack cables, I lose lots of high end. Very strange.

    The pancake cables are well made, and none of them have a short. This is something else I think. I made all the cables myself, including my regular REAN right-angled ones, so I'm fairly confident none of them are poorly soldered or anything like that.

    Loads of people online recommend the Mogami cable, which is why I bought it! But it seems you have to be careful where you place them.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10644
    Those partial shorts are a nightmare - how do they work again ICBM? They're devishly difficult to avoid if you're not precise enough in the cutting and soldering.
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71956
    The pancake plugs themselves may have high internal capacitance - you wouldn't think it could make that much difference compared to the capacitance of the cable, but it does. I could even tell the difference between a cable with Neutriks and one with Switchcrafts, when I compared them very carefully.

    The problem with that order is that the wah is true bypass, so the following cable then loads the guitar. Try putting the TU-2 in front of the wah - if that doesn't make the wah sound shrill.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    Okay, just got back from a roast. Had a play. Put the TU-2 before the wah, and now I can use the pancake jacks without problem. So it's something do with the TU-2 and wah ordering.

    But now there is no room for my volume pedal on the board. lol. FFS :)
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71956
    It's just tone suck from the pancake-plug cable coming after the true-bypass wah. Can you use longer cables so the tuner is to the left of the wah, or is that getting too complicated? :)

    Or just use a non-pancake cable for that one.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    I ended up with this:

    image

    REAN cables before and after the wah. It'll work for now I suppose, until I can figure out what direction I'm going in with my board. Actually with this config, the board is a bit quieter, and I no longer hear ticking pulses in the amp from my digital delays.

    I was also vaguely considering one of these:

    http://www.andertons.co.uk/footswitches/pid30221/cid583/decibel-eleven-switch-dr-midi-controller-38-loop-switcher.asp
    http://www.andertons.co.uk/footswitches/pid27941/cid583/decibel-eleven-pedal-palette-multi-pedal-switcher.asp

    Both would switch the amp via midi, allowing me to reduce the footprint of my board. They would also give me presets and bypass loopers for the pedals.

    The Pedal Palette is interesting, because you can swap the loopers around. I had the rough notion that you could put the Diezel's preamp in one of the loops, and then use the pedal palette to put reverbs and delays before or after the preamp, before then going out the output and into the amps FX loop return.
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