Intervals ~ what's in a name ?

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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    edited January 2018
    There wouldn't be enough fingers to play 2 of the same note (an octave apart) so there's no 2nd in a 9th chord, it'll also clash with the 3rd and the extension is normally fretted higher than the root and lower intervals (3rd, 5th and 7th).
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  • There wouldn't be enough fingers to play 2 of the same note (an octave apart) so there's no 2nd in a 9th chord, it'll also clash with the 3rd and the extension is normally fretted higher than the root and lower intervals (3rd, 5th and 7th).
    Steely Dan often use the 2nd with the 3rd. The so called 'mu major' chord.

    It's not a competition.
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  • There wouldn't be enough fingers to play 2 of the same note (an octave apart) so there's no 2nd in a 9th chord, it'll also clash with the 3rd and the extension is normally fretted higher than the root and lower intervals (3rd, 5th and 7th).
    Steely Dan often use the 2nd with the 3rd. The so called 'mu major' chord.

    With a 5th, 7th, and 9th as well?
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  • There wouldn't be enough fingers to play 2 of the same note (an octave apart) so there's no 2nd in a 9th chord, it'll also clash with the 3rd and the extension is normally fretted higher than the root and lower intervals (3rd, 5th and 7th).
    Steely Dan often use the 2nd with the 3rd. The so called 'mu major' chord.

    With a 5th, 7th, and 9th as well?
    Sorry I may have misunderstood. I was just picking up on the point that the 2nd and 3rd don't necessarily clash.
    It's not a competition.
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  • There wouldn't be enough fingers to play 2 of the same note (an octave apart) so there's no 2nd in a 9th chord, it'll also clash with the 3rd and the extension is normally fretted higher than the root and lower intervals (3rd, 5th and 7th).
    Steely Dan often use the 2nd with the 3rd. The so called 'mu major' chord.

    With a 5th, 7th, and 9th as well?
    Sorry I may have misunderstood. I was just picking up on the point that the 2nd and 3rd don't necessarily clash.
    Yeah well it depends on how you play it, sometimes when I play certain extended chords I omit the 5th to make room for another interval. I just didn't think you could fit all 6 intervals in one shape!
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  • ChrisMusicChrisMusic Frets: 1133
    edited January 2018
    HAL9000 said:
    I was told that a 9th contains the 7th as well as the 2nd, an 11th contains the 7th as well as the 4th, and a 13th contains the 7th as well as the 6th. Not sure if that's right but certainly something I've heard.
    I started this thinking about melodic intervals for simplicity, just to clarify the terminology, but you are right, there is the whole other issue of harmonic intervals, and their rules too.  Luckily rules are made to be broken (if there was ever a justification for the phrase "truism" then that must be it).  Just play around with the voicings and inversions, there are some lovely sounds to be had on the guitar, and a lot of "interesting" ones too.  Then there is the whole issue of sequencing, melodic or harmonic, and emotional response (which is where the power of music lives IMO)...

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  • ChrisMusicChrisMusic Frets: 1133
    An interval is the distance (in scale steps) between two pitches. A harmonic interval occurs when two notes are played at the same time. Intervals can also be melodic, meaning that the two notes are played in sequence, one after the other.

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  • stratman3142stratman3142 Frets: 2176
    edited January 2018
    An interval is the distance (in scale steps) between two pitches. A harmonic interval occurs when two notes are played at the same time. Intervals can also be melodic, meaning that the two notes are played in sequence, one after the other.
    The topic of harmonic intervals and chords would be good topic as well, perhaps on another thread.
    Sorry to derail the thread but the 13th chord is one I'm never sure about. The formula would say you can include the 9 and 11 as well. I can buy the inclusion of the 9, but the inclusion of the 11th makes it a very different sounding chord to my ear. If I saw 13th in a chord chart I'd probably omit the 11 unless my ear told me differently.
    It's not a competition.
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  • BradBrad Frets: 658
    edited January 2018
    HAL9000 said:
    I was told that a 9th contains the 7th as well as the 2nd, an 11th contains the 7th as well as the 4th, and a 13th contains the 7th as well as the 6th. Not sure if that's right but certainly something I've heard.
    Not quite. For example a 2nd and a 9th are the same thing but it depends on the chord type that generally dictates whether you'd call it a 2nd or 9th. If the 3rd and 7th are included in the chord, then 9th 11th and 13th are used, rather than 2nd 4th and 6th. Although I have seen them used on occasion, e.g Cmaj7#11 or Cmaj7#4.

    So C9 doesn't have both a 2nd and 9th because they are the same thing. We say 9th because we are extending above a 7th. So C9 is C E G Bb and D (1 3 5 b7 9).

    From a theoretical perspective, 11th and 13th chords are built on this principle so C11 is C E G Bb D F (1 3 5 b7 9 11) and C13 is C E G Bb D F A (1 3 5 b7 9 11 13). But this doesn't work in practise as depending on the chord type there are clashes between certain notes and a 13th chord has 7 notes. Because of this we alter some notes or omit some altogether.

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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    edited January 2018
    Brad said:
    HAL9000 said:
    I was told that a 9th contains the 7th as well as the 2nd, an 11th contains the 7th as well as the 4th, and a 13th contains the 7th as well as the 6th. Not sure if that's right but certainly something I've heard.
    Not quite. For example a 2nd and a 9th are the same thing but it depends on the chord type that generally dictates whether you'd call it a 2nd or 9th. If the 3rd and 7th are included in the chord, then 9th 11th and 13th are used, rather than 2nd 4th and 6th. Although I have seen them used on occasion, e.g Cmaj7#11 or Cmaj7#4.

    So C9 doesn't have both a 2nd and 9th because they are the same thing. We say 9th because we are extending above a 7th. So C9 is C E G Bb and D (1 3 5 b7 9).

    From a theoretical perspective, 11th and 13th chords are built on this principle so C11 is C E G Bb D F (1 3 5 b7 9 11) and C13 is C E G Bb D F A (1 3 5 b7 9 11 13). But this doesn't work in practise as depending on the chord type there are clashes between certain notes and a 13th chord has 7 notes. Because of this we alter some notes or omit some altogether.

    another little angle on this [which is not related to modern music theory] is that the 2nd, 4th and 6th are [rather, were in classical music] more typically used for suspensions..
    so they'ed be a momentary dissonance that then moves  to a consonance..

    for example, the sus4 [Root, 2nd, 5th] would resolve to a triad [Root, 3rd, 5th]
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • BradBrad Frets: 658
    Clarky said:
    Brad said:
    HAL9000 said:
    I was told that a 9th contains the 7th as well as the 2nd, an 11th contains the 7th as well as the 4th, and a 13th contains the 7th as well as the 6th. Not sure if that's right but certainly something I've heard.
    Not quite. For example a 2nd and a 9th are the same thing but it depends on the chord type that generally dictates whether you'd call it a 2nd or 9th. If the 3rd and 7th are included in the chord, then 9th 11th and 13th are used, rather than 2nd 4th and 6th. Although I have seen them used on occasion, e.g Cmaj7#11 or Cmaj7#4.

    So C9 doesn't have both a 2nd and 9th because they are the same thing. We say 9th because we are extending above a 7th. So C9 is C E G Bb and D (1 3 5 b7 9).

    From a theoretical perspective, 11th and 13th chords are built on this principle so C11 is C E G Bb D F (1 3 5 b7 9 11) and C13 is C E G Bb D F A (1 3 5 b7 9 11 13). But this doesn't work in practise as depending on the chord type there are clashes between certain notes and a 13th chord has 7 notes. Because of this we alter some notes or omit some altogether.

    another little angle on this [which is not related to modern music theory] is that the 2nd, 4th and 6th are [rather, were in classical music] more typically used for suspensions..
    so they'ed be a momentary dissonance that then moves  to a consonance..

    for example, the sus4 [Root, 2nd, 5th] would resolve to a triad [Root, 3rd, 5th]
    Absolutely and they sound lovely. I hear this a lot by the likes of Ted Greene etc.

    I suppose modern/jazz music theory redefined the use of suspensions and sus chords, actually muddying the waters a little with regards to understanding where a 2nd, 4th and 6th are used rather than a 9th, 11th and 13th and vice versa. Or the difference between a sus2 and an add9 (I've seen add2 quite often as it happens) and so on... 
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    Brad said:
    Clarky said:
    Brad said:
    HAL9000 said:
    I was told that a 9th contains the 7th as well as the 2nd, an 11th contains the 7th as well as the 4th, and a 13th contains the 7th as well as the 6th. Not sure if that's right but certainly something I've heard.
    Not quite. For example a 2nd and a 9th are the same thing but it depends on the chord type that generally dictates whether you'd call it a 2nd or 9th. If the 3rd and 7th are included in the chord, then 9th 11th and 13th are used, rather than 2nd 4th and 6th. Although I have seen them used on occasion, e.g Cmaj7#11 or Cmaj7#4.

    So C9 doesn't have both a 2nd and 9th because they are the same thing. We say 9th because we are extending above a 7th. So C9 is C E G Bb and D (1 3 5 b7 9).

    From a theoretical perspective, 11th and 13th chords are built on this principle so C11 is C E G Bb D F (1 3 5 b7 9 11) and C13 is C E G Bb D F A (1 3 5 b7 9 11 13). But this doesn't work in practise as depending on the chord type there are clashes between certain notes and a 13th chord has 7 notes. Because of this we alter some notes or omit some altogether.

    another little angle on this [which is not related to modern music theory] is that the 2nd, 4th and 6th are [rather, were in classical music] more typically used for suspensions..
    so they'ed be a momentary dissonance that then moves  to a consonance..

    for example, the sus4 [Root, 2nd, 5th] would resolve to a triad [Root, 3rd, 5th]
    Absolutely and they sound lovely. I hear this a lot by the likes of Ted Greene etc.

    I suppose modern/jazz music theory redefined the use of suspensions and sus chords, actually muddying the waters a little with regards to understanding where a 2nd, 4th and 6th are used rather than a 9th, 11th and 13th and vice versa. Or the difference between a sus2 and an add9 (I've seen add2 quite often as it happens) and so on... 
    I totally agree about the muddying of the waters...
    over the years I've had a few students ask "why is a sus4 called a sus4 / what does us actually mean?"

    modern theory allows a sus chord to exist in isolation rather than being a moment within a transition event between two chords..
    in my own songwriting and orchestral compositions I make a distinction when it comes to the use of sun chords..
    so I teach my students the conventional / modern sus chord stuff but will also back it up with my own personal take on this..
    so if for example I had a chord containing D, G, A, and the chords before and after were A7 and D...
    and the G from the A7 eventually resolves to the F# in the final D chord..
    we have a suspension event with preparation -> suspension -> resolution
    the D, G, A, is a Dsus4 chord

    if anything else happens so the G note is not prep'd in the previous and / or never resolves, I prefer to think of D, G, A as being a chord in isolation, and so it is D5 add11 [because there is no event sequence providing the suspended context]..

    kinda nit picky I know..
    and my lil' take on this has on occasion triggered some unusually strong flaming wars online [over a chord name ffs... lol]..
    however.. when I'm writing out chord charts I personally find it useful because I can immediately see the difference between them and so be able to appropriately voice the chord..
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • BradBrad Frets: 658
    Clarky said:
    Brad said:
    Clarky said:
    Brad said:
    HAL9000 said:
    I was told that a 9th contains the 7th as well as the 2nd, an 11th contains the 7th as well as the 4th, and a 13th contains the 7th as well as the 6th. Not sure if that's right but certainly something I've heard.
    Not quite. For example a 2nd and a 9th are the same thing but it depends on the chord type that generally dictates whether you'd call it a 2nd or 9th. If the 3rd and 7th are included in the chord, then 9th 11th and 13th are used, rather than 2nd 4th and 6th. Although I have seen them used on occasion, e.g Cmaj7#11 or Cmaj7#4.

    So C9 doesn't have both a 2nd and 9th because they are the same thing. We say 9th because we are extending above a 7th. So C9 is C E G Bb and D (1 3 5 b7 9).

    From a theoretical perspective, 11th and 13th chords are built on this principle so C11 is C E G Bb D F (1 3 5 b7 9 11) and C13 is C E G Bb D F A (1 3 5 b7 9 11 13). But this doesn't work in practise as depending on the chord type there are clashes between certain notes and a 13th chord has 7 notes. Because of this we alter some notes or omit some altogether.

    another little angle on this [which is not related to modern music theory] is that the 2nd, 4th and 6th are [rather, were in classical music] more typically used for suspensions..
    so they'ed be a momentary dissonance that then moves  to a consonance..

    for example, the sus4 [Root, 2nd, 5th] would resolve to a triad [Root, 3rd, 5th]
    Absolutely and they sound lovely. I hear this a lot by the likes of Ted Greene etc.

    I suppose modern/jazz music theory redefined the use of suspensions and sus chords, actually muddying the waters a little with regards to understanding where a 2nd, 4th and 6th are used rather than a 9th, 11th and 13th and vice versa. Or the difference between a sus2 and an add9 (I've seen add2 quite often as it happens) and so on... 
    I totally agree about the muddying of the waters...
    over the years I've had a few students ask "why is a sus4 called a sus4 / what does us actually mean?"

    modern theory allows a sus chord to exist in isolation rather than being a moment within a transition event between two chords..
    in my own songwriting and orchestral compositions I make a distinction when it comes to the use of sun chords..
    so I teach my students the conventional / modern sus chord stuff but will also back it up with my own personal take on this..
    so if for example I had a chord containing D, G, A, and the chords before and after were A7 and D...
    and the G from the A7 eventually resolves to the F# in the final D chord..
    we have a suspension event with preparation -> suspension -> resolution
    the D, G, A, is a Dsus4 chord

    if anything else happens so the G note is not prep'd in the previous and / or never resolves, I prefer to think of D, G, A as being a chord in isolation, and so it is D5 add11 [because there is no event sequence providing the suspended context]..

    kinda nit picky I know..
    and my lil' take on this has on occasion triggered some unusually strong flaming wars online [over a chord name ffs... lol]..
    however.. when I'm writing out chord charts I personally find it useful because I can immediately see the difference between them and so be able to appropriately voice the chord..
    I think it's good to be nit picky wink my pedantry alarm often rings playing extended chords, in as much that many of the shapes commonly used are not strictly 11th or 13th chords, but actually slash chords, 7sus, 7add11 or 7add13 etc, although they are used (and I do too) as though they are 11ths/13ths. Not really a big deal in the grand scheme of things providing the right sound is achieved, but I think it's important to be aware of this stuff nonetheless.

    I like your logic and sadly I can very well imagine people getting bent out of shape over it. Although I have to admit, I wouldn't appreciate seeing D5add11 on a chart at short notice!

    @ChrisMusic a couple of things regarding the second post.

    5 - perfect 4th up an octave is an 11th (not major 3rd/diminished 4th)
    6 - Is also a #11 

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  • ChrisMusicChrisMusic Frets: 1133
    edited January 2018
    Brad said:

    @ChrisMusic a couple of things regarding the second post.

    5 - perfect 4th up an octave is an 11th (not major 3rd/diminished 4th)
    6 - Is also a #11 

    Thanks for spotting that, all attended to now  D 
    I suspect there are some other addendums to that post, so if anything else comes to mind, please let me know.

    Thanks for adding more depth to the conversation, I am so out of my depth with chord conventions (and other things!), so the more knowledge you can share on here the better.  I can guarantee that there will be many folk on here who will also appreciate a stronger grounding in this.

    Hopefully it will become a valuable forum resource to reference for the future.  I will add it to the index of resources that I have set up in the "Music Theory" thread.

    "Other Resources" index here

    the "Music Theory" thread:
    http://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/7506/full-in-depth-music-theory-see-post-3#latest

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  • ChrisMusicChrisMusic Frets: 1133
    An interval is the distance (in scale steps) between two pitches. A harmonic interval occurs when two notes are played at the same time. Intervals can also be melodic, meaning that the two notes are played in sequence, one after the other.
    The topic of harmonic intervals and chords would be good topic as well, perhaps on another thread.

     I think that both Harmonic Intervals and Melodic Intervals have a natural home in this thread, and with so much informative discussion happening, I might even get to grips with this part of theory myself, at last   :o3

    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    With regards to naming conventions between Melodic and Harmonic intervals, it is slightly confusing to me when Melodically the flat 7th is also a minor 7th, and Harmonically Am7 is both minor 3rd and minor 7th,  E7 has a minor 7th, or am I just easily confused ?  Basically I do "get it", and I'm not sure I explained this very well, but it seems a little ambiguous to me.

    Personally, I would love some clarification on SUS chords, and what suspension actually means, and a bit more explanation on ADD chords too would be a great starter.  (Thanks for your earlier post @Lestratcaster , you paved the way to better understanding, I just need a bit more guidance.)

    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    @stratman3142 , what fingerings are you using for the Mu Major chords, anything Steely Dan related is always interesting IMHO ? 
    Maybe you could also add that to the "
    Your favourite chord ~ right now?" thread too?

    "Your favourite chord ~ right now?"
    http://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/120996/your-favourite-chord-right-now#latest

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  • stratman3142stratman3142 Frets: 2176
    edited January 2018

    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    @stratman3142 , what fingerings are you using for the Mu Major chords, anything Steely Dan related is always interesting IMHO ? 
    Maybe you could also add that to the "Your favourite chord ~ right now?" thread too?

    "Your favourite chord ~ right now?"
    http://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/120996/your-favourite-chord-right-now#latest

    I've already mention that chord on that thread - pay attention!

    It's an absolute pig to play on guitar because it contains consecutive intervals of 1, 2, 3 then the 5th.

    There's a bit more info on the chord at the link below:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_chord

    I used the chord extensively in the change on this month's Sotm backing track (hence the pretentious title) but played it on keyboards.
    http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/120658/solo-of-the-month-sotm-32#latest

    It's not a competition.
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  • ChrisMusicChrisMusic Frets: 1133
    ^^ cheers for the links @stratman3142 , I was being lazy (well actually just trying to get all the info in the thread itself ;) )  so was asking about the fingerings particularly as the consecutive intervals must make it a bitch (or at least gives limited opportunities).  Go on, help a brother out, don't make me loose the next hour (or two) down the Wiki rabbit hole  :)

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  • BradBrad Frets: 658
    edited January 2018
    @ChrisMusic no probs. @Clarky gives a great explanation of sus chords in a classical context. General rule of thumb for sus and add chords is this,

    Sus is the absence of the 3rd. If a triad is 1 3 5, then sus2 is 1 2 5 and sus4 is 1 4 5. You can have 7sus chords where the 3rd again is replaced, most commonly with the 4th. So a voicing for C9sus4 would be 8-x-8-7-6-x giving a formula of 1 7 9 11. I've also seen this called Bb/C or G-7/C as a C11 although this isn't strictly correct.

    An add chord is the addition of an extension to a triad. So add9 is 1 3 5 9. 
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  • ChrisMusicChrisMusic Frets: 1133
    Cheers @Brad   :)

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  • A suspended chord to me is literally what the name suggests, to "suspend" the 3rd interval of said chord, by raising or lowering it.

    E.g for an Asus2, the C# in the chord (formula A (root) C# (3rd) E (5th) now becomes a B as that's the 2nd interva in the key of A major.

    Thus an Asus4 would raise the C# by a semi-tone and it'd now be a D as its the 4th in the key of A.
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