How Good is Your Technique?

gitapik

  

Danji

Don't worry @gitapik I don't think that there is any etiquette that needs adhering. 

gitapik

Thanks, Danji. Looks like a nice forum. I like a section on technique. Don't always see that. 

guitarfishbay

Here's a fun test.  Use whatever 1 or 2 bar phrase or rhythm you want, just keep repeating it.

Write yourself out a click in midi in a DAW

Start with 1 bar count in however you like

Then 2 bars click on every beat 

Then 2 bars with click every 2 + 4

Then switch it off for as many bars as you like (the more bars the more difficult), don't look at the ruler as it can give visual hints, just try and keep time.

Then bring it back in on every beat.

See how many bars you can get with the click off, while still landing exactly on the 1 when the click returns.  

You can use any pattern you want, at any tempo you want.  If you want to check consistency, record each take to it's own channel (only listen to the one you're recording during the test though) and play them back, see how steady you're keeping it when the metronome is off.

dtr

Old_Swanner said:

Good points here, it's getting "meatier", especially with burger connotations!

 Here's a personal example.  I spent time last year learning 16 bars of Pat Martino's "Sunny".  It's about 130bpm on the record.  After a couple of weeks I could get it to about 115bpm fairly comfortably.  I managed once through at 130bpm but was right on the edge, so it would never have worked in any sort of pressure situation and certainly wasn't consistent. 

It really boiled down to one run.  Whatever speed I could get that up to, I could do the whole thing at (sound familiar?).  Hence it made sense to pull that out as a representative pattern.   I pulled it out, benchmarked it, wrote down the date and my measurement (115bpm) and put it on the "file and forget" stack, to return to at some point in the future.

So, if I come back in 3 years and that measurement is still 115bpm, would you imagine it would work any better when trying to play it at 130bpm?  Probably not.

If the top speed on the tricky bit made it to 130bpm I'd hope to be able to get through the full thing no problem, but I'd still be at the edge of my ability and liable to fall in a performance situation when the pressure is on.

If however, it (the trickiest bit) is up to 150bpm, how will playing the full thing at 130bpm feel?  What about if I could get it up to 170bpm?  There'd be 40bpm of headroom now.  I'd say it's that headroom that gives you the mental space to be more musical with the notes you play.  Less processing power taken up having to get the notes out, therefore more to focus on "musicality"!

OK, It makes sense when I read it...  The situation you describe is really familiar  Right now I'm 'stuck' on a couple of bars of a Bill Piburn arrangement of Jobim's Chega de Saudade...



Coming down the neck I catch the C# on the 5th string with my pinky, make an awkward stretch for the E#6/Ab (?), a full barre at the second fret for the partial F#m add9/A (?), slide the barrre up to the 4th fret and done.  This one's also 130bpm and I can't do anything but make a mess at tempo.  I'm lacking strength for the barre, struggling with the stretch..

I know it's a technique problem, and I know I need to make some changes.  I've got a gut feeling that doing the technique test in your blog won't do jack for me (but if it would I'd like to know why!), but it sounds like you think there's some kind of speed-demon challenge that would help me get it down.  My usual method would be to carry on playing slow and build up from there, and to be honest I'm at a loss to see a speed-oriented exercise that'd help me here, but hey, this is an interesting thread, and I'm in deep now... what's the speed challenge that will help me to play this better?

Old_Swanner

I know it's a technique problem, and I know I need to make some changes.  I've got a gut feeling that doing the technique test in your blog won't do jack for me (but if it would I'd like to know why!), but it sounds like you think there's some kind of speed-demon challenge that would help me get it down.  My usual method would be to carry on playing slow and build up from there, and to be honest I'm at a loss to see a speed-oriented exercise that'd help me here, but hey, this is an interesting thread, and I'm in deep now... what's the speed challenge that will help me to play this better?

This one's 8th notes @ 130bpm, so equivalent to only 65bpm in 16th notes.  I'll take a look later, but there'll certainly be a "most efficient" way to attack it.  If we can get the problems condensed into a few 2 or 4 beat tests, then bringing those up to say 150bpm+ should cure things.

What's your current top speed on my test?

Old_Swanner

Looks like first we need to get the fingering sorted.  The C# on string 5 is played with finger 3 while the finger 4 note on the top string is still ringing,  Finger 4 doesn't lift off until you play the barred notes at fret 1.  This is not easy, just tried it myself.  Zooming in, we're looking at this (a full bar of 8th notes)

---------------------1-------------------------5-----
--------------3-------------------------3------------
-------1-------------------------1-------------------
------------------------------------------------------
-4------------------------4---------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------

(can't seem to get image file to upload, so went the old fashioned way)

Can you keep all the lower notes ringing while the top string alternates between frets 1 and 5?  If so what speed can you do it to?  We're looking right at the independence of finger 4 here, so there's definitely crossover with my pattern, where a big problem for a lot of people is the inter-dependency of fingers 3 and 4.

DLM

@dtr This was a truly great post:

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/1469785/#Comment_1469785

Wis'd.

Your current Jobim conundrum has about as much to do with Old_Swanner's alternate picking test as fish farts have to do with why icebergs float. Might as well be a different instrument.

@Old_Swanner Intimating that you can do a few Martino choruses has piqued my interest. Might I ask to see your meat, please? By that I mean a video of your top speed on your own test, to your own conditions, i.e. 4 clean bars of repetition.

You show me yours and I'll show you mine?

In the interests of adding something productive: when I joined my current band, I struggled with the riff in the signature song. Palm-muted sixteenths at 165. Guess the genre!  I goosed the 'nome until I could do it scrattily at about 200. That made it much easier to find the pocket at target, and gave me a safety net for runaway drummers with bad Black Metal habits when playing live.

So: short bursts at tempos higher than your target. More repetitions than required at tempos lower than your target.

Rick Graham (YouTube) and Jonathan Strange (Maniacal on forums/Shred Training [his business]) as examples for inspiration and further guidance.

Old_Swanner

@Old_Swanner Intimating that you can do a few Martino choruses has piqued my interest. Might I ask to see your meat, please? By that I mean a video of your top speed on your own test, to your own conditions, i.e. 4 clean bars of repetition.

Filmed in 2010, the last time I spent my practice pushing this one to the max.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf7eu1PFiKk

gitapik

IME, there's a difference between getting a phrase down for a solo work vs runs and riffs over a bass/drums backdrop. No value judgement. I love metal, jazz, etc. Just different genres/techniques.

Classical/fingerstyle guitar was my go to for decades. What you're looking at with this Jobim passage is a prime example of the proverbial "bitch".

Some things to keep in mind when dealing with transcriptions of pieces that were written for other instruments or combined instrumental/vocal pieces transcribed into solo pieces:

The person who is doing the transcription might have a different physiology from your own. Might also be at a higher skill level. Segovia's hands were like bear paws. HUGE. That, combined with all his years of study, made what would seem impossible to some a complete breeze for him. 

Parkening recorded a wonderful album of personally transcribed Bach works and published an accompanying book with all those pieces, written note for note. I was studying and gigging a lot at the time, so I grabbed that book, happily thinking I'd increase my repertoire. Some of the stretches and passages were unbelievably hard, though. The man is a virtuoso. Fortunately, Sir Parkening had the foresight to realize there would be plenty of people like me, so he flagged those tough sections (very accurately) and had a glossary at the end of the book with alternate (aka: easier) fingerings for each section that could be used until the real thing was finally achieved (if ever).

That's one of the things I'd advise you on, dtr: if you're in a hurry to get this piece down for a gig and there won't be thousands of virtuosos, salivating and waiting to see if you botch that section or not, I'd say just find a fingering that's comfy for you which leaves out a note or two and makes it flow easier, for now. Work on the tougher stuff over time.

If, however, you've got some time and want to do it according to this transcription, I would say to tread with caution and move slowly. Swanee's right about the independence of the 3 and 4 fingers. It's a common stumbling block that needs to be developed over time. If you try to apply the advanced bpm method, you could easily end up practicing your mistakes over and over again, which will put you into the "practice makes permanent in a bad way" camp. You might want to take a lesson or two just for this one section, in fact. Skype or not. Get you on the right track to start.

Even more importantly: you want to avoid injury. Tendonitis is a common malady of people coming off of injuries too quickly. And if it's severe, you're in trouble. It also crops up when we try to do something that's not natural to our physical makeup in too rushed of a fashion, in the first place. I don't know where you're at, dtr, in terms of technique...so please forgive if I'm playing "master of the obvious", here, but if this passage requires techniques and stretches that are new to you or are not yet fully developed, then you'll need to teach your body and mind how to get it right, slowly and gradually, with breaks in between, during which you either rest or move on to stuff that you're more comfortable with. Then back again to that grind. It'll become natural and flow easier over time. 

dtr

Wow, thanks for all the responses folks!  Looks like I've got plenty to try this weekend.

@Old_Swanner - yep, I wrote the fingering wrong - I use the pinkie for the A on the 1st string and the 3rd finger for the C#.  I don't manage to hold the notes as long as I should, pretty much just play them in passing (with the aim of keeping them ringing as much as I can).  I'll try out your exercise and see if it helps with the stretch.  Oh, and I think I'm only 'GCSE' level in your test.

@gitapik - thanks for the advice.  I'm in no hurry, I just play for fun and it'll be a looong time before anyone but friends and family hear me play this.  The whole piece is a new style for me (more used to US blues based stuff) so I'm chipping away at it slowly as I don't get as much time to play as I'd like.  A friend suffers from terrible RSI, to the point of being unable to play, so it's something I'm pretty watchful about.

Old_Swanner

dtr said:

@Old_Swanner - yep, I wrote the fingering wrong - I use the pinkie for the A on the 1st string and the 3rd finger for the C#.  I don't manage to hold the notes as long as I should, pretty much just play them in passing (with the aim of keeping them ringing as much as I can).  I'll try out your exercise and see if it helps with the stretch.  Oh, and I think I'm only 'GCSE' level in your test.

I 'm also enjoying the challenge of these couple of bars and will keep it on my radar.  The pattern I suggested is only an "exercise" if it makes you better!  Otherwise, like anything else, it's just a test, and one it's entirely possible, without effective practice, to keep failing forever.

I only have little hands, and need to use a fairly extreme hand position to even get these notes out, so to me this feels to me like a much higher level than GSCE.  That may differ for someone with larger hands,  our physical limitations are always a factor.  That's another reason I like my pattern as a good general overview, hand size is not an issue at all, a six year old can play it easily enough.

I'll predict, if you can achieve real improvement on this Pilburn section, your potential speed on my test (relating to left hand) will also rise.  Do you know what's stopping you making it to 100bpm?  Right hand, left hand or co-ordinating the two?

dtr

Old_Swanner said:

dtr said:

@Old_Swanner - yep, I wrote the fingering wrong - I use the pinkie for the A on the 1st string and the 3rd finger for the C#.  I don't manage to hold the notes as long as I should, pretty much just play them in passing (with the aim of keeping them ringing as much as I can).  I'll try out your exercise and see if it helps with the stretch.  Oh, and I think I'm only 'GCSE' level in your test.

I 'm also enjoying the challenge of these couple of bars and will keep it on my radar.  The pattern I suggested is only an "exercise" if it makes you better!  Otherwise, like anything else, it's just a test, and one it's entirely possible, without effective practice, to keep failing forever.

I only have little hands, and need to use a fairly extreme hand position to even get these notes out, so to me this feels to me like a much higher level than GSCE.  That may differ for someone with larger hands,  our physical limitations are always a factor.  That's another reason I like my pattern as a good general overview, hand size is not an issue at all, a six year old can play it easily enough.

I'll predict, if you can achieve real improvement on this Pilburn section, your potential speed on my test (relating to left hand) will also rise.  Do you know what's stopping you making it to 100bpm?  Right hand, left hand or co-ordinating the two?

Right hand issues, pretty much.  I usually blame being left-handed but playing right-handed for long struggles with picking technique (comes from learning on a borrowed guitar).  I tend to find I pick up new things with my left hand much quicker than with the right.  The problems I have with this part of the Jobim piece though are all in the left hand.

I do have big hands though (playing ninths on a piano is comfortable, can play a 10th at a stretch), so while I still have a lot of work to do on stretching and strength I don't think I'll be limited physically.

I've just tried the pattern you posted and can keep the notes ringing fine, but my right hand can't keep it together for long once I get past 80bpm..

mellowsun

Is this technique test supposed to be played with a plectrum, apoyando or free stroke? Alternate picking or economy picking?

If a player can play it faster fingerstyle than with a plectrum does that mean they are less musical?

Old_Swanner

dtr said:

I do have big hands though (playing ninths on a piano is comfortable, can play a 10th at a stretch), so while I still have a lot of work to do on stretching and strength I don't think I'll be limited physically.

Jealous.

Old_Swanner

If a player can play it faster fingerstyle than with a plectrum does that mean they are less musical?

I can definitely play it faster with a pick than with my big toe.  Which do you think would be more musical?

An extreme example, but the same idea applies to your question, just not as obvious.

Veganic

BRISTOL86 said:

I can play that at 260bpm but I can't change from an open chord to a barre chord. 

I'm a long way from a guitar god!

I struggle at 100bpm.
Time to give up (or take up bass).

Old_Swanner

@dtr How about you put up a video of where you're at with this, just looping round the 2 bars under discussion?

And talking of videos, DLM said:

@Old_Swanner  Might I ask to see your meat, please? By that I mean a video of your top speed on your own test, to your own conditions, i.e. 4 clean bars of repetition.

You show me yours and I'll show you mine?

I'm still eagerly awaiting your meat DLM!

DLM

OK, here's last night's Ćevapi:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4181/34465578686_51f1041f22_o.jpg

Old_Swanner

Haha, come on, my investigations say that you're a shredder, was expecting at least 200bpm from you.