Setting Nut Height From Open String?

thegummy

I've seen a few setup guides where people measure the distance between the first fret and open string to determine how low to file their nut.

Is it just that they don't know the nut can be isolated from the rest of the setup by fretting at the second fret or is there a benefit to doing it with the open string?

richardhomer

The idea of the third fret method is that is doesn’t matter whether the bridge is set miles too high or miles too low - you’ll always get the nut set right and can deal with other issues in isolation.

WezV

I have a little gauge to measure string deflection as you fret for that very reason.

i prefer the 3rd fret method

guitarfishbay

WezV said:

i prefer the 3rd fret method

That’s how I do it.

Just go slow and keep checking if you’re only just starting, took me about 10 to feel a bit more confident about it

thegummy

richardhomer said:

The idea of the third fret method is that is doesn’t matter whether the bridge is set miles too high or miles too low - you’ll always get the nut set right and can deal with other issues in isolation.

That's what I thought - it makes sense to me that the nut height can be cut independently of bridge height.

Just wondered why some people would do it the other way, it seems a worse way to do it with no benefits. Maybe they genuinely didn't know about the 3rd fret method when they started out and are now in the habit of doing it their own way?

Funkfingers

Heeeeeeere's Dan E.

http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Learn_About_Guitar_Nut_and_Saddle_Setup_and_Repair/Using_Feeler_Gauges_to_Control_Nut_Slot_Depth.html

richardhomer

Funkfingers said:

Heeeeeeere's Dan E.

http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Learn_About_Guitar_Nut_and_Saddle_Setup_and_Repair/Using_Feeler_Gauges_to_Control_Nut_Slot_Depth.html

This is in reality just a more ‘scientific’ version on the ‘3rd fret method’. He’s still cutting the slots in relation to the height of the first fret.

Wolfetone

For years I have set mine up by fretting at capo 3 and lowering the slots until there is a strings thickness at the first fret. Anyone else do this?

WezV

it’s the same principle as fretting at the 3rd. A thickness gauge is easier to get in place than a string so you don’t need the 3rd hand.  I do most by feel, without any measuring device. 


  I take it you don’t slot with the capo in place?

sweepy

I’ve always done it by eye and feel when cutting nut slots, never let me down yet but each to their own etc

Fuengi

Anyone care to share the 3rd fret method? I've got a nut to file and some as yet unused Hosco nut files. 

@richardhomer @WezV @guitarfishbay ;

richardhomer

Fuengi said:

Anyone care to share the 3rd fret method? I've got a nut to file and some as yet unused Hosco nut files. 

@richardhomer @WezV @guitarfishbay ;;;

You fret (or capo) each string at the third fret, then ‘tap’ each string against the first fret.

There should be a gap between the string and the first fret - but it should be very slight. 

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the advantage of this is that the bridge settings and neck relief are totally out of the equation. You will have a perfectly cut nut and can then deal with relief and action settings in isolation.

SimonBarden

But don't cut the nut slots really low until you've set up the truss rod and action/saddle height for the rest of the guitar, using a capo on the 1st fret to take the nut out of the equation.  If you go for the nut slots first, then make big changes to the truss rod, the shape of the neck will change, and even using the 3rd fret technique, you could then end up with the slots too low and buzzing from the first couple of frets.

By all means lower the nut slots a reasonable amount if you've fitted a new nut and they are very high, but until you've set up the neck relief and action, don't go for the minimum slot depth.  Certainly use that 1st fret capo  when checking beck relief with a high nut as that will affect the amount of upward lift the string tension puts on the neck, so your relief setting could well be too flat once you lower the nut slots otherwise.  It won't be by a huge amount as the angle change from high to low nut slots isn't that great, but I believe in getting it right to start with if possible.

ICBM

richardhomer said:

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the advantage of this is that the bridge settings and neck relief are totally out of the equation. You will have a perfectly cut nut and can then deal with relief and action settings in isolation.

Exactly.

SimonBarden said:

If you go for the nut slots first, then make big changes to the truss rod, the shape of the neck will change, and even using the 3rd fret technique, you could then end up with the slots too low and buzzing from the first couple of frets.

No, that cannot happen. The neck simply isn't flexible enough between the nut and the first fret to make that possible.

Fuengi

richardhomer said:

Fuengi said:

Anyone care to share the 3rd fret method? I've got a nut to file and some as yet unused Hosco nut files. 

@richardhomer @WezV @guitarfishbay ;;;;

You fret (or capo) each string at the third fret, then ‘tap’ each string against the first fret.

There should be a gap between the string and the first fret - but it should be very slight. 

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the advantage of this is that the bridge settings and neck relief are totally out of the equation. You will have a perfectly cut nut and can then deal with relief and action settings in isolation.

That's the missing piece I'd been looking for, thanks. I put a slight amount of relief in the neck as per the Fender spec but was thinking about juggling nut, truss rod and saddle height until I hit my happy. This makes it much more straightforward. 

I've got a feeler gauge, I'll check my Strat which is perfectly set up by Simon Jones to see what gap he has at the first fret and copy that. 

thegummy

Fuengi said:

richardhomer said:

Fuengi said:

Anyone care to share the 3rd fret method? I've got a nut to file and some as yet unused Hosco nut files. 

@richardhomer @WezV @guitarfishbay ;;;;

You fret (or capo) each string at the third fret, then ‘tap’ each string against the first fret.

There should be a gap between the string and the first fret - but it should be very slight. 

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the advantage of this is that the bridge settings and neck relief are totally out of the equation. You will have a perfectly cut nut and can then deal with relief and action settings in isolation.

That's the missing piece I'd been looking for, thanks. I put a slight amount of relief in the neck as per the Fender spec but was thinking about juggling nut, truss rod and saddle height until I hit my happy. This makes it much more straightforward. 

I've got a feeler gauge, I'll check my Strat which is perfectly set up by Simon Jones to see what gap he has at the first fret and copy that. 

It's not even an amount measurable with feeler gauges (unless they're incredibly thin I suppose) it's pretty much the difference between it touching and not touching.

It's very difficult, IMO, to do it well because there's such a tiny difference between "could be lower" and the nut being completely ruined. That's why I decided to leave it to the professionals. (nudge @ICBM

SimonBarden

ICBM said:

SimonBarden said:

If you go for the nut slots first, then make big changes to the truss rod, the shape of the neck will change, and even using the 3rd fret technique, you could then end up with the slots too low and buzzing from the first couple of frets.

No, that cannot happen. The neck simply isn't flexible enough between the nut and the first fret to make that possible.

Note that I said 'big changes,' not meaning a 1/4 turn tweak.  You really aren't thinking this through as it's the distance from the nut to the 3rd fret, not just to the 1st that's being affected. The whole neck geometry is altered and it's all important.

Let's say the neck starts out with a significant amount of relief. You have x amount of bow in the neck between the 3rd and nut.   You then set up the nut slot depth leaving your desired height above the 1st fret. 

You then adjust the neck relief to be minimal, so that amount of bow between the nut and 3rd fret basically disappears, so the height of the string above the first fret when held down at the 3rd fret is now maybe x/2 lower than before.  It's not a huge amount, but if you like your nut slots cut as low as possible, then it can be enough to get the strings buzzing.

It's not the sort of thing I'd do now (starting off with far too much neck relief), but I have experienced it in the past, and had to fit a new nut and start again.

thegummy

SimonBarden said:

ICBM said:

SimonBarden said:

If you go for the nut slots first, then make big changes to the truss rod, the shape of the neck will change, and even using the 3rd fret technique, you could then end up with the slots too low and buzzing from the first couple of frets.

No, that cannot happen. The neck simply isn't flexible enough between the nut and the first fret to make that possible.

Note that I said 'big changes,' not meaning a 1/4 turn tweak.  You really aren't thinking this through as it's the distance from the nut to the 3rd fret, not just to the 1st that's being affected. The whole neck geometry is altered and it's all important.

Let's say the neck starts out with a significant amount of relief. You have x amount of bow in the neck between the 3rd and nut.   You then set up the nut slot depth leaving your desired height above the 1st fret. 

You then adjust the neck relief to be minimal, so that amount of bow between the nut and 3rd fret basically disappears, so the height of the string above the first fret when held down at the 3rd fret is now maybe x/2 lower than before.  It's not a huge amount, but if you like your nut slots cut as low as possible, then it can be enough to get the strings buzzing.

It's not the sort of thing I'd do now (starting off with far too much neck relief), but I have experienced it in the past, and had to fit a new nut and start again.

When people say third fret they really mean they put their finger where they'd play a G on the lowest string but we're going towards the headstock so it's really the 2nd fret being used. The third fret doesn't come in to it, it's just the neck at the first fret that counts. That won't bow with the truss rod. Or at least according to any of the top men I've read from.

ICBM

SimonBarden said:

Note that I said 'big changes,' not meaning a 1/4 turn tweak.  You really aren't thinking this through as it's the distance from the nut to the 3rd fret, not just to the 1st that's being affected. The whole neck geometry is altered and it's all important. 

Let's say the neck starts out with a significant amount of relief. You have x amount of bow in the neck between the 3rd and nut.   You then set up the nut slot depth leaving your desired height above the 1st fret. 

You then adjust the neck relief to be minimal, so that amount of bow between the nut and 3rd fret basically disappears, so the height of the string above the first fret when held down at the 3rd fret is now maybe x/2 lower than before.  It's not a huge amount, but if you like your nut slots cut as low as possible, then it can be enough to get the strings buzzing.

It's not the sort of thing I'd do now (starting off with far too much neck relief), but I have experienced it in the past, and had to fit a new nut and start again.

Er... I am thinking this through. In fact, I'm basing it on having set up literally several thousand guitars .

If you cut the nut correctly using the third fret method then it will be correct for any amount of relief, because it will be very slightly higher than the first fret and that cannot be affected by the curvature of the neck over so short a distance. Period.

And I do also like the nut slots to be cut as low as possible, I use 1/4 or less of the string diameter as the guide using the third fret method.

In any case, it's the distance from the *second* fret to the nut over which the string is used as the straight-edge, not the third. The truss rod has virtually no effect that close to its end anyway.

Fuengi

I checked my Strat, which is definitely the best set-up guitar I have, with the 3rd fret method and the movement is almost imperceptible. But it's just there. 

My Tele is miles off at the moment so got a little bit of filing to do. 

Looking again I might need a bit more relief in the neck which is a bit of a pain as I have to keep taking the neck off. Any useful tips? 

thegummy

Fuengi said:

I checked my Strat, which is definitely the best set-up guitar I have, with the 3rd fret method and the movement is almost imperceptible. But it's just there. 

My Tele is miles off at the moment so got a little bit of filing to do. 

Looking again I might need a bit more relief in the neck which is a bit of a pain as I have to keep taking the neck off. Any useful tips? 

You might find you don't have to take the neck all the way off, just unscrew it enough so the truss rod adjustment is above the body.

It's a big pet peeve of mine though, I really don't know why Fender sometimes puts the adjustment at the bottom of the neck rather than at the headstock.

As far as I know there's no benefit, just inconvenience. If anyone knows a good reason (or any reason) please tell me.