Pentatonic 'discovery'..?

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HansiRHansiR Frets: 28
Hi Guys... I'm probably stating the obvious here and it will probably make a few of you laugh (or cry!) but as I'm just starting out on learning how to play lead guitar after 50 years of chords, this seems to be a big breakthrough for me... so... I've been messing around with the minor pentatonic (not to mention filling my head with hidden triads, riffs, major pentatonic, 3, 4, 5, 6, note leads, boxes, modes, etc. etc.),sometimes getting totally lost but at the same time slowly making my way into the mysterious world of playing leads in tune, when I discovered (I say "discovered" as I have never seen or heard about this in any of the hundreds of videos that I've watched!) that if I, say, take the 1st minor pentatonic position starting on the low 'E' string at the  5th (A) fret, and I play 5 -8, then 5 - 7 on the' A' string, and then 5 - 7 on the 'D' string, that last 7th fret being the (A) octave, I discovered that, instead of going straight across the neck and playing the usual 'shape' ( 5-8,5-7,5-7,5-7,5-8,5-8)  I can instead repeat that same sequence from that same 7th fret on the 'D' string and play 7 - 10, then 7 - 9 on the 'G' string, then 8 - 10 on the 'B' string, another (A) octave reached... then 10 - 13 on the 'B' string, then 10 - 12 - 15 - 17 on the high 'E' string to reach a 3rd (A) octave... I have watched many videos showing how to break out of the box and get away from simply playing across the neck and back again, and play diagonally up the neck but I haven't seen this actually explained, that you can repeat the same sequence (3, 2, 2, etc. until you reach the high 'E' string and run out of notes!) and that you can do this starting from any root note and repeat it, up or down the neck depending where you are, from each root note octave... this has not only started to teach me where the root note octaves are, it's also opened up the neck and given me a wider area to play around in. So now, instead of having to stick to starting from the low 'E' string each time, I am able to jump straight to an octave (root note) of whatever key I'm playing in and start the 3, 2, 2, etc. sequence from there, or jump backwards and forwards and have a lot more variation... this is a great discovery for me and has made learning a lot more fun... I know that I am using the same sequence of notes as going across the neck, but using the root note octaves as a jumping off point to start a minor pentatonic lead, or riff, seems to allow a lot more freedom and helps with learning one's way around the neck at the same time... sorry if this is all boringly obvious guys but I'm pretty excited about it, just a little step forward for me...
Ps: I just bought a Ditto X2 Loop pedal so that I can record a backing track and then try to play a lead over it... it's great! Sometimes I even sound in tune...!!!
Cheers, Hansi

TO DO IS TO BE - Nietzsche   TO BE IS TO DO - Kant   DO BE DO BE DO - Sinatra
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  • HattigolHattigol Frets: 8175
    Good on you, buddy. Unlocking and linking different areas of the neck is great - keep at it. Sounds like you're hooked!
    "Anybody can play. The note is only 20%. The attitude of the motherf*cker who plays it is  80%" - Miles Davis
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  • machakmachak Frets: 8
    I made some interactive diagrams that might help you with this (visualizing it) check:

    https://grunfy.com/pentanizer.html  

    It's not very mobile friendly, so use some device with larger screen.  You can turn any shape on and off, switch to interval view or see what is the relative major/minor scale (press button)
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  • I think you are discovering the 5 shapes of the minor pentatonic scale. The first shape starts on the root, the second starts on the b3, etc and the 5th starts on the b7. yes indeed, join them up so that you can switch between shapes and then you can play all over the fingerboard. Example in Am:
     shape 1 in 5th position fingering 1 4, 1 3, 1 3, 1 3, 1 3, 1 4 (strings 6 -> 1) gets you R b3, 4 5, b7 R, b3 4, 5 b7, R b3
    shape 5 in 3rd position fingering 2 4, 2 4, 1 4, 1 4, 2 4, 2 4 gets you b7 R, b3 4, 5 b7, R b3, 4 5, b7 R

    HTH, the rest is left as an exeercise to the reader ;)
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
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  • RockerRocker Frets: 4942
    Discovering the notes on the fretboard is the easy bit. Using those same notes to make music is when you discover that the ante has been upped. And upped a lot.
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [Albert Einstein]

    Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

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  • ModellistaModellista Frets: 2039

     shape 1 in 5th position fingering 1 4, 1 3, 1 3, 1 3, 1 3, 1 4
    I think that should be 1 4, 1 3, 1 3, 1 3, 1 4, 1 4

    What @HansiR has discovered is the way to abandon the five shapes, or at least link partial shapes together to use the fretboard in a diagonal fashion, which is really the end point of learning the five shapes.

    To add my little contribution, my diagonal Am pentatonic would end up (starting at b7 on 6th string)

    1 --------------------------------8-10-12-15-17
    2  ------------------------8-10
    3  ----------------5-7-9 (slide to 9)
    4  -----------5-7
    5  ----3-5-7 (slide to 7)
    6  3-5    <-start here

    The advantage being you can cover three octaves instead of two.  I might go back to shape 1 if I was adding passing notes on the B string (b6th at fret 6 or 6th at fret 7) - it seems to make more sense to me to put them there but of course they can be played anywhere.  I particularly like a 6th-b7th bend on the B string (bend 7th fret one semitone).  It's the little touches that elevate a solo from just pentatonic-by-rote into something more creative.
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  • BroccoBrocco Frets: 88
    This discussion is very helpful - I am on the exact same journey as @HansiR. A related (quite possibly dumb) question: why are modes of the major scale so described, and not simply referred to as shapes/patterns per other scales?   
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  • ModellistaModellista Frets: 2039
    Brocco said:
    This discussion is very helpful - I am on the exact same journey as @HansiR. A related (quite possibly dumb) question: why are modes of the major scale so described, and not simply referred to as shapes/patterns per other scales?   
    I'm not a music history buff so I can't answer that directly.  My take on modes is a bit quick-n-dirty but here it is.

    The major and minor pentatonics are the building blocks for everything.  They tell you essentially what you need to know about the essential differences between major and minor - 3rd v ♭3rd, 6th v ♭7th.  And they also tell you the constants - roots, 4th and 5th.  Then it's basically a case of learning how the "in between" notes add colour - 2nds, ♭5ths, ♭6ths, maj7ths, etc.  

    When you're playing it doesn't really matter if you don't know the mode names, although in the longer term is becomes helpful to be able to describe what's going on in words.  A ♭5th will usually want to resolve to the 4th, a ♭6th to the 5th, a maj7th to the root.  Then weird notes like the 2nd can be added sparingly if necessary.  Any note can be played over any chord, knowing what's going to happen when it does is the key.

    Sorry I couldn't answer your question!


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  • @modellista thanks for your correction you are quite right (finger trubble)
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  • @Brocco ; AFAIK the names of 'modes' hark back to the scales used by the ancient Greeks, except that the 'modes' we think of today don't really map onto the scales the ancient Greeks were supposed to have used. In years gone by the people writing music for church use (which accounted for most of the professional music writing population) used names for their modes (rather than numbers) and also associated some complex rules for note usage within the 'mode' for example you must have this note after you have used those two in a particular order. These also are not really the same as modern 'modes'. For modern modes it is as valid to talk about the 2nd mode of G major as it is to talk about A dorian. The names seem to be a convention that's all. Similarly we can talk about the 1st 2nd 3rd 4th degrees of the major scale or use names like Tonic, Supertonic, Mediant, SubDominant etc.

    The usage of modes of our major scale helps us to generate key signatures. If you write out the intervals of the Cmaj scale (no sharps or flats) for each of its modes, you find that the one on the 4th degree has a #4 and all the other notes are as per a maj scale, and the one on the 5th degree is the same as the maj scal except that it has a b7. Applying a tweak to each if those to turn them back into major scales means you flatten the B in the 4th mode to get F major and sharpen the F in the 5th mode to get G major. Then you can repeat the process on your new major scales. Hence you can generate key signatures.

    The process doesn't really apply to pentatonics.
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  • BroccoBrocco Frets: 88
    thank you @modellista ;and @Phil_aka_Pip - much appreciated
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  • GrunfeldGrunfeld Frets: 4027
    machak said:
    I made some interactive diagrams that might help you with this (visualizing it) check:

    https://grunfy.com/pentanizer.html  

    @machak -- that's great!
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  • machakmachak Frets: 8
    @Grunfeld thx  =)
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  • HansiRHansiR Frets: 28
    Thanks guys for all that amazing information, I really appreciate all the time and effort involved and it helps a lot. Thanks Machak for that very detailed, interactive chart, I'll definitely hang on to that for future use! Thanks Modellista for your Am pentatonic route up the neck, a case of "you take the high road and I'll take the low road", or maybe the other way around in this case! It's very much like planning a route on a map, sometimes taking a shortcut between two points or sometimes taking a longer, but more scenic route... in any case, it seems to me at the moment that all the fun appears to be in the journey and not necessarily in the actual arrival!

    TO DO IS TO BE - Nietzsche   TO BE IS TO DO - Kant   DO BE DO BE DO - Sinatra
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  • axisusaxisus Frets: 28280
    My brain just can't process this stuff. I didn't get the original post, nor the pentanizer diagram. This is probably why I have never got anywhere with music theory. I'm convinced that my mind genuinely struggles to comprehend this sort of info.
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  • HansiRHansiR Frets: 28
    Hi Axisus... the original post was from me, right at the top of the page. Actually, how you're feeling is exactly like I have always felt. I tried here and there and made a sort of attempt at learning something but I always gave up quickly because it all seemed to be way above my head. I stuck to finger-picking chords for 50 years... I did pick up a few runs here and there that I just memorized but without understanding why, in fact, it used to annoy me no end and I would feel really frustrated with the whole thing, so I stuck to what I knew and that's it. Well, until I watched some YouTube clips showing the Milk Carton Kids duo, I was blown away by the guy playing the most amazing leads, often with a capo right up the neck and using just 2 or 3 frets to produce incredible leads... so, I started thinking about having another go at learning how to play a lead in tune, and I swapped a resonator guitar on GumTree for an electric guitar, bought a little CUBE amp and started watching YouTube. No, actually, I asked the advice of the experts on this site where would be the best place to start, and everyone responded with... you guessed it, the minor Pentatonic scale! So, I started watching everything that had to do with learning the 1 st shape out of the 5, then started watching how to play simple leads with that 1st shape, etc. To my great surprise, it worked, it sounded in tune and so I watched even more clips and slowly started to try things out on my own, and this brings me up to where I am right now... very slowly I'm learning something new and it's given me a whole new outlook and boosted my enthusiasm for playing again... I'm only just starting out on this new venture and it's fantastic. I can only offer you the advice to perhaps follow the same route that I have, just taking it a tiny step at a time, I think you will be very surprised to find that you can process this... believe me, if I can then you certainly can! I'm going to be 69 in 2 days' time, I thought that I might be too old to start again but I'm just starting to see a little glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel and I'm going in head first... absolutely love it! Don't give up mate, have a go, starting with that 1st shape of the minor pentatonic and see where it takes you... cheers, Hansi

    TO DO IS TO BE - Nietzsche   TO BE IS TO DO - Kant   DO BE DO BE DO - Sinatra
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  • machakmachak Frets: 8
    axisus said:
    My brain just can't process this stuff. I didn't get the original post, nor the pentanizer diagram. This is probably why I have never got anywhere with music theory. I'm convinced that my mind genuinely struggles to comprehend this sort of info.
    Those diagrams can be intimidating at first, so take some time to digest them. There are few videos explaining this concept, 
    one of them I posted in this thread:

    http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/135200/oh-no-not-scales-again#latest

    Take a few minutes maybe it will start making sense.

    I also hope you found out you can turn shapes on/off on pentanizer thingy, to isolate shapes/intervals, demo:


    https://imgur.com/gallery/Ei5xdOe


    Don't give up that easy ;-)

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  • wis @HansiR I like your attitude mate :)
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • axisusaxisus Frets: 28280
    Nice story @HansiR and well done for getting stuck in at a good age. I can actually noodle around the neck playing dodgy blues till the cows come home, but it is a well furrowed rut that I have been stuck in for decades. Whenever theory comes up I feel like I'm looking at algebra equations. I think I need an actual teacher to improve, but procrastination has been a lifelong bedfellow.

    @machak thanks - I'll take a look at your links.
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  • The way I teach the pentatonic is the box shapes at the start (everyone has to start somewhere) and also link it with the chord shapes of the CAGED system. Then they'll start to learn the root notes and intervals across the neck, link shapes together and break out of the boxes in time.
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  • 4on64on6 Frets: 86
    +1 for the CAGED system. I didn’t really get that until after I’d been to guitar institute for 10 weeks and learnt the 7 x 3 note per string ‘mode’ shapes by rote and then seeing the 2 approaches side by side. Any new info will give that headf**k feeling btw. It’s something to be embraced (however painful and frustrating it may feel at the time) because that’s the feeling of new information getting into your brain and being slowly assimilated. Congrats to anyone assimilating new knowledge. 
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