Currently learning how to play jazz.

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rossyamaharossyamaha Frets: 2439
It's actually really simple.  :s

I play guitar and take photos of stuff. I also like beans on toast.

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  • rossyamaharossyamaha Frets: 2439
    Seriously though, learning a ton of songs for a tour and I simply don't have the muscles or brain power to play jazz.

    Is there anyone here that started out as a rock guy and moved into jazz and actually got it? What was the lightbulb moment? I'm waiting for something to happen and the penny to drop when suddenly everything just makes sense. 

    I play guitar and take photos of stuff. I also like beans on toast.

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  • when you find out, please tell me!
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    I won’t say ‘I got it’ or I had a lightbulb moment but it is something I play a lot of.
    It is much more work than people expect.
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  • MegiiMegii Frets: 1670
    I don't think you ever stop learning - hopefully you get to a point where you sound kind of like you know what you're doing. Barry Greene's videos are a really great resource:

    https://barrygreenevideolessons.vhx.tv/ - also he's got quite of promo videos on Youtube that give a good idea of the material covered.
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  • rossyamaharossyamaha Frets: 2439
    The thing I'm most struggling with is all the technical speak. 1 4 5 and 2 5 1 and substitutions and the really complicated stuff like major or minor chords! ;-)

    I wish I could find something that breaks it down into it's most simplest form and says, so you're a rock or blues guy, well do this and you're a jazz guy. Same way I learned how to play a ton of country guitar overnight for a tour. Move that blues scale down a few frets and you're a country guy. Easy. 

    I realise it goes so much deeper than that. I'm watching videos about soloing over chord changes and my brain just isn't wired to work that quickly. Watching George Benson shred is a wonderful thing but completely above my ability. Maybe I'm overthinking things and wanting it to just happen like most other things I've had to learn. Just looking for something that takes what I already know and turns into jazz. The long and short of it is I'm lazy and don't want to put the work in. 

    I play guitar and take photos of stuff. I also like beans on toast.

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  • BradBrad Frets: 658
    edited August 2018
    The long and short of it is I'm lazy and don't want to put the work in. 
    Then I’ll take the tour off your hands then wink 

    Seriously though, that’s your problem right there. We all love hearing Benson and the rest rip it up, but he spent pretty much all his life listening and playing Jazz. There aren’t any short cuts, coz believe me I’d have tried them smile 

    That’s not to say all is lost. I’m not a Jazz player at all, but I can fake it to most folks. Those in the know, will see right through it but that’s for me to sort out. 

    To get through the tour I’d get a good working knowledge of maj7, dom7, min7, m7b5 and dim7 chords, preferably with root notes on both E and A strings. Justinguitar is a good resource for the most common shapes. Anything else like 9ths and Altered chords or drop 2 shapes can come another time. Although you probably already know the Hendrix chord! 

    Learn the Jazz Blues (you’re part way there if you know the 12 Bar Blues) and get the Real Book and work through some standards such as Autumn Leaves, Satin Doll, Tune Up and then some more involved ones like Stella By Starlight and All The Things You Are. 

    As for soloing, you’d be surprised with how much you can get away with using the Pentatonic scale. Maybe check out... i think it’s jazzguitar.be for some single note lines to learn and plug in. 

    Listen to guys like Jim Hall, he can say a lot with few notes. 

    But most importantly you need to listen to a lot of jazz and get some sense of swing in your playing. 

    Good luck!
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  • BradBrad Frets: 658
    Regarding the whole technical speak, that’s to do with harmony and diatonic chord systems.

    How well do you know the major scale?
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited August 2018
    Seriously though, learning a ton of songs for a tour and I simply don't have the muscles or brain power to play jazz.

    Is there anyone here that started out as a rock guy and moved into jazz and actually got it? What was the lightbulb moment? I'm waiting for something to happen and the penny to drop when suddenly everything just makes sense. 
    Yes, me!

    With your level of playing you are certainly capable of playing awesome jazz. There are a few techniques or short cuts that can kickstart it for you; I was amazed when I had my eyes opened to it by my teacher; and once the thing clicks it takes on its own momentum. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited August 2018
    As Brad has said, the jazz blues is an excellent place to start because it will get you playing 13 chords on the tonic, 9 chords on the IV, the altered, half-whole and wholetone scales on the V (this is very important), diminished chords between the I, IV and V, hendrix and altered chords on the vi, it’ll give you ii-V-Is on the IV chord, and vi-ii-V-Is on the tonic, it’s got all the basic vocab of jazz. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • fandangofandango Frets: 2204
    Jazz ......... nice.  ;)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdWJpHt1Xws&frags=pl%2Cwn


    *cough* Sorry, I'll get my coat.
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  • rossyamaharossyamaha Frets: 2439
    Brad said:
    Regarding the whole technical speak, that’s to do with harmony and diatonic chord systems.

    How well do you know the major scale?
    Is that the happy one? ;-)

    I play guitar and take photos of stuff. I also like beans on toast.

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  • rossyamaharossyamaha Frets: 2439
    viz said:
    As Brad has said, the jazz blues is an excellent place to start because it will get you playing 13 chords on the tonic, 9 chords on the IV, the altered, half-whole and wholetone scales on the V (this is very important), diminished chords between the I, IV and V, hendrix and altered chords on the vi, it’ll give you ii-V-Is on the IV chord, and vi-ii-V-Is on the tonic, it’s got all the basic vocab of jazz. 
    Cheers mate. I think for now it’s gonna be a case of learning new shapes and relying on muscle memory then learning about what I’m actually doing later on. Got 2 tunes down already with some real jazzy bastard chords which I don’t know the names of and blagging my way through solos with the odd wrong passing note. Sounding ok for a couple of hours work so I’m happy enough. 

    I play guitar and take photos of stuff. I also like beans on toast.

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  • BradBrad Frets: 658
    Brad said:
    Regarding the whole technical speak, that’s to do with harmony and diatonic chord systems.

    How well do you know the major scale?
    Is that the happy one? ;-)
    That be it! :+1: 
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  • bigjonbigjon Frets: 680
    viz said:
    Is there anyone here that started out as a rock guy and moved into jazz and actually got it? What was the lightbulb moment? I'm waiting for something to happen and the penny to drop when suddenly everything just makes sense. 
    Yes, me!
    Me too!

    Unfortunately for you, my lightbulb moment was occasioned by reading a book for pianists: A Classical Approach To Jazz Piano: Exploring Harmony by Dominic Aldiss

    However I tried to distil the essence of what I learned into my Twinkle Jazz series which I did as part of Chord Of The Week here on the FretBoard - first thread in the series linked below and there's an index to the rest of the series in the second post.

    http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/64757/chord-of-the-week-2-1-16-twinklejazz1-jazz-imaj7-3rd-7th-chord-frags
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  • bigjonbigjon Frets: 680
    For a quick 5-minute burst of inspiration you may find my Chordoftheweek post on the Universal All-Purpose Jazz Chord (xx7788) useful - it has got me through many a jazz jam

    http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/30832/chord-of-the-week-3-1-15-the-universal-all-purpose-jazz-chord
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  • bigjonbigjon Frets: 680
    Copied and pasted from a thread on jazz soloing shortcuts from about 5 years ago.

    Another good "sound like you know what you're doing" thing to play over the V7 chord is root note on the top string, up one fret, up another two frets, then extend that pattern over the next two strings. So the pattern is over a D7 into G is

    -10-11-13-
    -10-11-13-
    -10-11-13-
    --------------
    --------------
    --------------

    and a sample lick would be

    ---10---11---13---11---10--------------------------------------------------
    ------------------------------------13---11---10------------------------------
    --------------------------------------------------------13---11---10---11----
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I did a Youtube vid to illustrate, this lick is at 0:18 and the whole discussion is linked in the description with analysis of the other shortcut licks in the video


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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 614
    I'm going through the pain of it now ..and having a few lightbulb moments but putting a lot of work into it....jazz like anything else is i think ..its a language and it needs to be learned as such ..I don't think there is any real short cuts ..there are ways of sounding jazzy with passing notes and a jazz tone ...even 251 in you can use the 1 chord and sort of get away with it but its not same as treating every chord individually and highlighting different things ... 
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  • JalapenoJalapeno Frets: 6378
    Nail major 251 and your 80% there !

    Min 251, Maj then Min (eg. Bb followed by Bbm) that's about it other, than the V7 chord (outside of a 251), and then it's nearly always the middle 8 from I've Got Rhythm

    Ignore everything after the first number in chords - that's the piano player's or horn section's job. 

    So for D7b5#9  - play D7, for Dm7#9b11 - Dm7 etc

    Root of the chord is the bassist's job too.

    CAGED is good, or the Jimmy Bruno 5 fingerings (similar, but not identical)

    Ignore modes, all about arpeggios to sound hip

    iReal on the iPad saves buying dozens of Real Books.
    Imagine something sharp and witty here ......

    Feedback
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  • Matt_McGMatt_McG Frets: 321
    I'm not a good jazz player, although been working on it for a while.

    There's lots of good advice above.

    1. Try not to be overwhelmed. Despite what some people write, there's zero need to learn all 8 modes, plus harmonic minor, melodic minor (and modes thereof), altered dominant, bebop, whole tone, etc. in all 12 keys, in every position of the neck, before you start. There's a huge amount of willy-wagging bullshit around on this one. Many of the greatest jazz players in history knew basically NONE of this.
    2. Learn chords. You really do need to know how to play each of the main chord types: major (and maj7), minor (and minor 7), dominant 7, m7b5 and diminished. It also helps to know how to find the common extensions (6/13, b9, 9, #9, b5, #5) relative to those shapes.  And you need to know them in several places on the neck. That might mean CAGED, or it might mean something simpler. I found a 'gypsy' book by Stephane Wrembel that used a simplified system (basically CAE plus some connecting notes) a good way in.
    3. Start with learning to comp along with songs. Learning to smoothly connect chords across the neck will help you learn the neck and understand how you could, for example, play across some changes while staying in one position on the neck. Freddie Green style, and then into more modern styles of comping.
    4. When improvising: play the melody for the song, and play the chord tones (i.e. play arpeggios).
    5. Listen to stuff you like and try to hear it in your head.
    For me, I found it easier to learn pre-bebop stuff first. So swing and gypsy jazz tunes. The progressions are easier, and there's not a ton of clever harmony stuff happening. That and jazz-blues (as per above).

    Personally, I'm at the point where I can noodle happily along with basic unes that aren't too fast, and don't have really busy progressions. But on fast stuff with a lot of changes, or bebop, I still get lost and mixed up really quickly.


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  • smigeonsmigeon Frets: 282
    Matt_McG said:
    I'm not a good jazz player, although been working on it for a while.

    There's lots of good advice above.

    1. Try not to be overwhelmed. Despite what some people write, there's zero need to learn all 8 modes, plus harmonic minor, melodic minor (and modes thereof), altered dominant, bebop, whole tone, etc. in all 12 keys, in every position of the neck, before you start. There's a huge amount of willy-wagging bullshit around on this one. Many of the greatest jazz players in history knew basically NONE of this.
    2. Learn chords. You really do need to know how to play each of the main chord types: major (and maj7), minor (and minor 7), dominant 7, m7b5 and diminished. It also helps to know how to find the common extensions (6/13, b9, 9, #9, b5, #5) relative to those shapes.  And you need to know them in several places on the neck. That might mean CAGED, or it might mean something simpler. I found a 'gypsy' book by Stephane Wrembel that used a simplified system (basically CAE plus some connecting notes) a good way in.
    3. Start with learning to comp along with songs. Learning to smoothly connect chords across the neck will help you learn the neck and understand how you could, for example, play across some changes while staying in one position on the neck. Freddie Green style, and then into more modern styles of comping.
    4. When improvising: play the melody for the song, and play the chord tones (i.e. play arpeggios).
    5. Listen to stuff you like and try to hear it in your head.
    For me, I found it easier to learn pre-bebop stuff first. So swing and gypsy jazz tunes. The progressions are easier, and there's not a ton of clever harmony stuff happening. That and jazz-blues (as per above).

    Personally, I'm at the point where I can noodle happily along with basic unes that aren't too fast, and don't have really busy progressions. But on fast stuff with a lot of changes, or bebop, I still get lost and mixed up really quickly.


    Wis’d - that is very good advice right there, IMHO. 
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