What is the point in Modes?

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  • As a general rule the happy/sad thing only makes sense when comparing chords, not entire pieces of music. 

    i.e. play a small child a G major chord and a G minor chord and the vast majority will understand the happy/sad thing straight away. When comparing entire pieces of music there are too many other factors: tempo, instrumentation, etc. and its not the same comparison at all. 
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  • axisusaxisus Frets: 28280
    My main failing with modes and improv - am I correct in that you need to know all the underlying chords so that you know what mode to play over them? That's me royally fecked as I wouldn't have a clue unless they were written out.

    Also, does one change mode when chords change or generally stick with one??
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  • finest1finest1 Frets: 94
    sev112 said:
    So what are the modes in the 2 Star Wars pieces

    i hate the “one sounds happy and one sounds sad” explanation
    no it doesn’t!!!  It still doesn’t explain anything using Star Wars, as it did in school music lessons when the teacher said “doesn’t this sound happy”.  No it didn’t then either. 

    Maybe what you think sounds happy isn’t what I imagine.  And I play lots of “happy” upbeat songs starting on A minor. 
    Stairway to heaven when it gets rocky sounds very happy and energetic to me , yet it is Am G F

    Or Happy Birthday? C G and F, so Ionian in C?
    most miserable sounding song you can find - I think, maybe others think it sound happy?


    there is no right or wrong, just what sounds good to you. if you hear minor keys and modes better and dislike major sounding scales and modes, that's totally fine, go with that.

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  • finest1finest1 Frets: 94
    axisus said:
    My main failing with modes and improv - am I correct in that you need to know all the underlying chords so that you know what mode to play over them? That's me royally fecked as I wouldn't have a clue unless they were written out.

    ideally yes. but this is basic scales and chord theory that's all you need. if you know that then your fine. I would learn intervals alongside that as this would help modally.

    Also, does one change mode when chords change or generally stick with one??

    totally up to you, there is no rules as such, just what sounds good. I know some jazz musicians that do,

    you might want to read up or watch some videos on joe satriani's pitch axis theory. its a great starting point



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  • robertyroberty Frets: 10893
    edited January 2019
    axisus said:
    My main failing with modes and improv - am I correct in that you need to know all the underlying chords so that you know what mode to play over them? That's me royally fecked as I wouldn't have a clue unless they were written out.

    Also, does one change mode when chords change or generally stick with one??
    To figure out the chords you need two types of ear skills.

    One is knowing what chord type it is, eg minor, major, dominant 7th, major 7th, minor 7th

    Once you know the chord type you just need to find the root note and you'll be able to put the chord over it. There is some trial and error involved in finding the root note of a chord

    The other ear skill is relative pitch. So you hear one note, you don't necessarily know what it is but when you hear the next note you know how big the gap is between the two notes, this is called the interval

    A good way to remember intervals is to associate each one with the first two notes of a melody. Eg, minor second is the jaws theme, major sixth is 'my Bonnie'. A fifth would be "star... man! (waiting in the sky)"

    The two skills above when combined will allow you to figure out the chords to any song. Once you know the first chord you can use relative pitch to identify the interval beteen the root notes and then hear the chord type played over the notes

    Modal theory will support the above in diatonic music. But in jazz you're fucked because jazz is mental
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  • robertyroberty Frets: 10893
    edited January 2019
    ^^^ there are ear training apps these days for developing the above skills. I was lucky enough to have ear training drilled into me at school
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  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 2393
     A fifth would be "star... man! (waiting in the sky)"


    er, isn't that an octave?
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  • TheBlueWolfTheBlueWolf Frets: 1536
    edited January 2019
    axisus said:
    My main failing with modes and improv - am I correct in that you need to know all the underlying chords so that you know what mode to play over them? That's me royally fecked as I wouldn't have a clue unless they were written out.

    Also, does one change mode when chords change or generally stick with one??
    The first answer is yes as it brings out the flavour of the mode you're using....e.g. Dorian sounds good over minor 7th chords.

    The second question is if you want.

    Say you're soloing over a 1 4 5 in C, which gives you the chords C, F and G. C Ionian ( the major scale ) sounds great over all 3 chords *but* you can switch to F Lydian and G Mixolydian for the F and G chords if you want ;)

    Twisted Imaginings - A Horror And Gore Themed Blog http://bit.ly/2DF1NYi


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  • robertyroberty Frets: 10893
    Stuckfast said:
     A fifth would be "star... man! (waiting in the sky)"


    er, isn't that an octave?
    Oh yeah haha. I was drunk sorry. Let's dance is a backwards fifth?
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  • vizviz Frets: 10645
    edited January 2019
    axisus said:


    Also, does one change mode when chords change or generally stick with one??



     if you want.

    Say you're soloing over a 1 4 5 in C, which gives you the chords C, F and G. C Ionian ( the major scale ) sounds great over all 3 chords *but* you can switch to F Lydian and G Mixolydian for the F and G chords if you want
    You can if you want, and there is no right answer. However my advice would be really against going down this way of thinking, especially for short progressions like I-IV-V, ii-V-I, I-V-vi-IV, etc.

    These are harmonic progressions - sequences of chords within a single thematic ‘sentence’ that typically only lasts a few bars and is repeated a few times over the course of the piece. I.e., a normal song, not a classical concerto. There is no modulation here (a modulation means a new key has to establish itself), therefore the underlying key remains as C throughout.

    Generally speaking, an effective melody is one that is able to carry through over a whole progression; not one that is pieced together from different, stand-alone chords. To try and make your brain switch to a new mode for every chord within a diatonic progression, and then play the same alphabet anyway, might not help. It could trip you up while you think of the chord and mode; or worse, it could result in your melodies sounding stuttered, disconnected and ungainly. (Gosh this is difficult to describe with text!)

    As an example, Twinkle Twinkle has the chords:

    Twinkle twinkle little star, how I wonder what you are
    I                    I                IV         I        IV            I               V                I

    In C, the tune is:

    C G A G; F E D C. 

    That tune stays completely in C, there is no modulation, no new modes to worry about, it’s just a tune in C. It doesn’t make sense to think on chord IV that the A is the 3rd note in F Lydian. 

    That’s just my view though, I could be missing something though so take it with plenty of salt. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • merlin said:

    Think about Arabic/Turkish Music for a moment. They have incredibly complex modes (not scales) that contain not just quarter tones, but much smaller divisions. And they have amazing complex systems during improvisations to move between modes. Also those modes have specific melodic "personalities" that according to the system have to behave in certain ways, otherwise you're not actually playing the mode correctly. They're not just choices of notes ascending or descending, but the modes have very specific emotional and melodic shape. 
    Is that also true of Ecclesiastical modes? They weren't just sets of notes being a re-ordered scale, there were also rules about how you used those notes and what sequences of notes were legal?
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
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  • vizviz Frets: 10645
    edited January 2019
    merlin said:

    Think about Arabic/Turkish Music for a moment. They have incredibly complex modes (not scales) that contain not just quarter tones, but much smaller divisions. And they have amazing complex systems during improvisations to move between modes. Also those modes have specific melodic "personalities" that according to the system have to behave in certain ways, otherwise you're not actually playing the mode correctly. They're not just choices of notes ascending or descending, but the modes have very specific emotional and melodic shape. 
    Is that also true of Ecclesiastical modes? They weren't just sets of notes being a re-ordered scale, there were also rules about how you used those notes and what sequences of notes were legal?
    They weren’t rules so much as conventions - there were 4 modes and 4 hypomodes (like modes but bounded top and bottom by the dominant - a bit like the skye boat song or happy birthday, though they’re both Ionian, and Ionian (or hypoionian) wasn’t in the initial list of 4). 

    Edit: this is quite good: https://youtu.be/lyq48eybjZw
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    edited January 2019
    if you have or can make a backing track with just an E note from the bass pumping along..
    try experimenting with each of the modes over that and you'll find their individual voices..
    E Ionian, E Aeolian, E Dorian etc..
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • viz said:
    axisus said:


    Also, does one change mode when chords change or generally stick with one??



     if you want.

    Say you're soloing over a 1 4 5 in C, which gives you the chords C, F and G. C Ionian ( the major scale ) sounds great over all 3 chords *but* you can switch to F Lydian and G Mixolydian for the F and G chords if you want
    You can if you want, and there is no right answer. However my advice would be really against going down this way of thinking, especially for short progressions like I-IV-V, ii-V-I, I-V-vi-IV, etc.

    These are harmonic progressions - sequences of chords within a single thematic ‘sentence’ that typically only lasts a few bars and is repeated a few times over the course of the piece. I.e., a normal song, not a classical concerto. There is no modulation here (a modulation means a new key has to establish itself), therefore the underlying key remains as C throughout.

    Generally speaking, an effective melody is one that is able to carry through over a whole progression; not one that is pieced together from different, stand-alone chords. To try and make your brain switch to a new mode for every chord within a diatonic progression, and then play the same alphabet anyway, might not help. It could trip you up while you think of the chord and mode; or worse, it could result in your melodies sounding stuttered, disconnected and ungainly. (Gosh this is difficult to describe with text!)

    As an example, Twinkle Twinkle has the chords:

    Twinkle twinkle little star, how I wonder what you are
    I                    I                IV         I        IV            I               V                I

    In C, the tune is:

    C G A G; F E D C. 

    That tune stays completely in C, there is no modulation, no new modes to worry about, it’s just a tune in C. It doesn’t make sense to think on chord IV that the A is the 3rd note in F Lydian. 

    That’s just my view though, I could be missing something though so take it with plenty of salt. 
    Fair points Viz :)

    It was more of an explanation than anything. Personally I'd stick to the one scale for a short progression, although it's possible to change scales.

    Twisted Imaginings - A Horror And Gore Themed Blog http://bit.ly/2DF1NYi


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  • vizviz Frets: 10645
     

    Fair points Viz :)

    It was more of an explanation than anything. Personally I'd stick to the one scale for a short progression, although it's possible to change scales.


    Sure, and your post was perfectly legit and I did clock your emphasis that you *can* think chord-by-chord if you really want; and indeed if the chord durations are really long and you’re wanting to cram hundreds of notes in then I guess you might find yourself thinking in a mode rooted in the chord you’re on. 


    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • NelsonPNelsonP Frets: 3347
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  • JalapenoJalapeno Frets: 6378
    Long overdue .....


    Imagine something sharp and witty here ......

    Feedback
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    Clarky said:
    if you have get / make a backing track with just an E note from the bass pumping along..
    try experimenting with each of the modes over that and you'll find their individual voices..
    E Ionian, E Aeolian, E Dorian etc..
    Also known as pitch axis theory.

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  • vizviz Frets: 10645
    edited January 2019
    octatonic said:
    Clarky said:
    if you have get / make a backing track with just an E note from the bass pumping along..
    try experimenting with each of the modes over that and you'll find their individual voices..
    E Ionian, E Aeolian, E Dorian etc..
    Also known as pitch axis theory.

    I caught a Russian pianist practising her arps using the pitch axis approach a few years ago

    https://youtu.be/OAbjZWzVpuE
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • sev112sev112 Frets: 2739
    NelsonP said:
    It’s a nice start, but  he is hoisted by his own pertard by playing something supposedly “major”, and then exactly the same piece / scale and then and saying it now sounds “minor”.  As if that demonstrates anything when all he was doing was playing the same notes ??  If you don’t know why and in what way it supposedly “sounds minor” then he is not helping anyone.
    and he has the nerve to say lots of other people describe Modes wrong :) ha ha

    it was useful saying that one of Santana’s songs sounds Dorian. Well that was useful.  Some more examples of other songs which are in certain modes will help us work out others :)

    therein lies the whole rub of this whole thing, and is the difference between a good teacher and someone who just says what they know but which doesn’t help the person that matters - the student.


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