Inexpensive but more sensitive mic than Shure SM57

soma1975

Thanks for for some wonderful advice. Once the family are out I will have a play again and get to the bottom of it. 

This is something I recorded (just the guitar) with the mic and preamp before so it did work okay as a combo in the past. 



 SM57 was about 3" to the right of the centre of the speaker. Bit of reverb and eq added in post.

octatonic

That's actually pretty good- the guitar is quite bright but it sounds good.
I wouldn't have thought a LP though- I might do a bit of sculpting in the 400-600hz range,

I'm listening to the track on my studio monitors (which are flat to 40hz) and I'm not getting a lot of kick drum though.
I'd lift the bass drum and snare and keys up, drop the bass guitar a bit, lift the hammond.

There is some noise in the track as well, not sure what probably guitar hum.
This could be the issue- either there s too much amp gain, too much preamp gain and/or compression from a plugin that is raising the noise floor.
Or the mic has a problem.

I tried to download the track from Soundcloud to run it through Izotope RX (forensic audio cleaner-upper) but it doesn't give me the option for download.

soma1975

Oh that was me pissing about to a backing track back when I first got the audio interface to test it. 

Had a chance to record again now. Getting a decent enough level by having everything on full but a fair old bit of background noise too. An unacceptable level to be honest. Much worse than in that previous recording. 

The only thing changed is the mic has been getting bashed about a bit in a box so maybe it's time to give it a nice burial and look at an E906. 

Out of interest re mic placement and gain - the recording doesn't have as much gain as the sound in the room. Any tips on where best to stick the mic in relation to the centre of the cone to have it be a little more accurate? 

Thanks. 

soma1975

Just saw this on Premier guitar about mic placement. Will give it a go. 

Here’s how shavering works: Set your amp up, turn it on, and let it warm up. Plug in your guitar and dial up the tone you want. Important: when you have the tone you want in the room, unplug your guitar! Choose your mic (don’t worry, we’ll be talking a lot about microphones in future issues) and plug it into your preamp, interface, or mixing console. Turn off the studio monitors and plug in a set of headphones. Now, turn the gain and the master volume on the amp all the way up. You should hear strong hiss coming from the amp. Warning: before proceeding to the next step, double-check that no guitar is plugged in.

Put on the headphones. Now take the microphone in one hand and hold it up to the amp’s speaker. You should hear the hiss from the amp through the microphone and through your headphones. You may need to increase the gain on your mic preamp, and you may or may not need to turn up the headphones in order to hear the hiss at a decent volume.

One more cautionary note: Be very careful of noise in the room if you have the preamp and headphones cranked, and be wary of someone inadvertently plugging into the amp. Any stray noise could blast you at extreme volume through the phones and damage your hearing. Not to belabor the point, but don’t mess around. Even if you don’t permanently damage your hearing, you’ll blow your ears out and not be able to hear accurately for hours—which will effectively bring the session to a screeching halt.

Now, very slowly, move the microphone around the speaker. You’ll hear the tone of the hiss change as the mic moves—it will sound vaguely like an electric razor (thus Olsen’s “shavering” name). Experiment with angling the mic, moving it in and out, and so on. You’ll quickly begin to hear the differences each of these changes makes to the tone of the hiss.

Here’s where different engineers’ approaches diverge on this technique. Olsen moves the mic until he finds the spot on the speaker where the mic picks up the brightest sound. Other engineers look for the hiss to sound the same through the mic as it does when you’re listening to the speaker in the room. Others look for a “balanced” hiss with a neutral tonality. Still others look for the spot on the speaker where the hiss is the darkest in tone. (I suggest recording some tracks using each approach to see which works best for you. You may prefer different approaches in different contexts.) Once you’ve found the spot, take off the headphones and set the mic in its stand in the location you found most appealing. Return your amp to its normal gain and volume settings, and dial back the mic preamp gains and headphone volume to the settings you usually use for recording.

Rock On
That’s it. Now you’re ready to lay down your tracks. The advantage of this technique is that it gives you a practical method for locating a good mic position. It’s also dependable. If you look for the brightest hiss each time you place the mic, for example, the mic will deliver a consistent sonic image of that amp, no matter how long it has been since you last laid down tracks. Give shavering a try—it works!

octatonic

soma1975 said:

Just saw this on Premier guitar about mic placement. Will give it a go. 

snip

Rock On
That’s it. Now you’re ready to lay down your tracks. The advantage of this technique is that it gives you a practical method for locating a good mic position. It’s also dependable. If you look for the brightest hiss each time you place the mic, for example, the mic will deliver a consistent sonic image of that amp, no matter how long it has been since you last laid down tracks. Give shavering a try—it works!

This is the method I use when using a single mic.
Multimicing is similar, I choose a primary and a secondary.
Primary is placed as above, secondary is placed next to it.

fastonebaz

When I record with my sm57 at bedroom levels I have to whack the line gain up almost full to get any kind of useable signal too.  Mines only a few years old but rarely used and well looked after. 

soma1975

Cool very good to know cheers. 

ecc83

Never heard of that technique before but it has two disadvantages to my mind.

1) You have to set the amp to levels dangerous to your ears and possibly could get you banned if a 130dB "burst" were to happen.

2) You are relying on the random noise generation of odd values and makes of resistors (yes, they make a lot more noise than a good valve!)

Better idea IMHO, generate white noise in Audacity and feed that in a controlled manner.

Dave.

Stuckfast

It does strike me as a strange approach in that you are choosing the mic position on the basis of a completely different signal from the one you'll actually be recording, but I know a lot of people use it.

soma1975

I've sacked off all the variables and bought a Two Notes Captor instead... Which will lead me to my next thread full of questions...

Lestratcaster

Reviving this thread as I got myself an Sm57 yesterday to record some live video stuff during guitar lessons. I’m running it through a Yamaha MG10 mixer into a Focusrite 8i6 to get it into the laptop. I recorded a couple of test clips on acoustic and as mentioned above I have to crank that preamp gain on the mixer to almost full to get any decent signal. Note the compressor has been turned down so does this affect the gain level at all? Later on I mic’d up a small 5 watt guitar combo and again had to turn the pre amp gain almost all the way up. There was also a hissing sound coming from the speakers suggestion it’s very high.

If I get a Fethead booster (about £60 so not too bad) it will require phantom power and channels 1-4 on the mixer can be switched for this. However my Kemper runs into xlr port 2 and having phantom power enabled may damage it cos it doesn’t require 48v. Unless I use a line in signal but I wanna use xlr if I can.

andy_k

Rode make a very large range of inexpensive, or expensive mics, which are well worth looking at.https://www.rode.com/microphones/all
I picked up an M3 as a compliment to my SM57, which has the benefit of being battery powered which can be a useful blend when recording.
I know they aren't known as studio legends, but I found it a useful addition to my very limited mic locker, (SM57, matched pair of Rode M5, Rode M3, )
I don't record much live though.

Lestratcaster

Oh so the M3 doesn't require phantom power to come from the mixer at all? Just a 9v battery? Hmm that could be an option.

TheMadMick

I'm a bit of a Rode M3 fan. A lot of mic for the money and it gives a lovely tone on vocals. Prefer them to the Sennheiser. I use them with phantom power but they also work on my Marshall acoustic amp which has a low voltage on phantom power if things on the net are to be believed.

Lestratcaster

How much pre amp gain does the M3 need?

The AKG P170 is £60 and sounds decent, a small diaphragm one might be better as a large one or a too high quality one may pickup background noise too well, I have a neighbour who has an overly noisy cocker spaniel who likes to race out into the garden and bark overly excessively, and this will definitely be picked up by large condenser!

TheMadMick

The P170 is a reasonable alternative but is lighter and, from memory, won't take a 9v battery. Horses for courses.

Lestratcaster

"Lighter" as in weight or output volume? I've watched a couple of demos and it actually sounds really really good. Certainly enough for a few live clips. Worth a punt.

Winny_Pooh

Lestratcaster said:

Reviving this thread as I got myself an Sm57 yesterday to record some live video stuff during guitar lessons. I’m running it through a Yamaha MG10 mixer into a Focusrite 8i6 to get it into the laptop. I recorded a couple of test clips on acoustic and as mentioned above I have to crank that preamp gain on the mixer to almost full to get any decent signal. Note the compressor has been turned down so does this affect the gain level at all? Later on I mic’d up a small 5 watt guitar combo and again had to turn the pre amp gain almost all the way up. There was also a hissing sound coming from the speakers suggestion it’s very high.

If I get a Fethead booster (about £60 so not too bad) it will require phantom power and channels 1-4 on the mixer can be switched for this. However my Kemper runs into xlr port 2 and having phantom power enabled may damage it cos it doesn’t require 48v. Unless I use a line in signal but I wanna use xlr if I can.

Don't add money to a weak mic. I'd spend on a fathead for an SM7/ribbon mic but not a 57. Rather buy something else. 
1- if you want less noise then don't use the mixer in line, go direct into the interface.
2- if for acoustics too get something like a basic rode/se electronics/Aston large diaphragm condensor. Will solve your gain/noise & clarity issues. If you insist on a dynamic then try an Audix i5. It won't have that much more gain but it will sound better too.

Lestratcaster

Winny_Pooh said:

Lestratcaster said:

Reviving this thread as I got myself an Sm57 yesterday to record some live video stuff during guitar lessons. I’m running it through a Yamaha MG10 mixer into a Focusrite 8i6 to get it into the laptop. I recorded a couple of test clips on acoustic and as mentioned above I have to crank that preamp gain on the mixer to almost full to get any decent signal. Note the compressor has been turned down so does this affect the gain level at all? Later on I mic’d up a small 5 watt guitar combo and again had to turn the pre amp gain almost all the way up. There was also a hissing sound coming from the speakers suggestion it’s very high.

If I get a Fethead booster (about £60 so not too bad) it will require phantom power and channels 1-4 on the mixer can be switched for this. However my Kemper runs into xlr port 2 and having phantom power enabled may damage it cos it doesn’t require 48v. Unless I use a line in signal but I wanna use xlr if I can.

Don't add money to a weak mic. I'd spend on a fathead for an SM7/ribbon mic but not a 57. Rather buy something else. 
1- if you want less noise then don't use the mixer in line, go direct into the interface.
2- if for acoustics too get something like a basic rode/se electronics/Aston large diaphragm condensor. Will solve your gain/noise & clarity issues. If you insist on a dynamic then try an Audix i5.

Hard to mix in backing track when Windows 10 only picks up analogue ports 1+2 from interface, both port would be taken up by both our guitars and for some reason only records so audio plays out one speaker side. I use a webcam with my laptop to record video and take the audio from the Focusrite purely for time saving as it’s during lessons so only get a quick 5-10 mins to take clips.

Will definitely get a condenser for acoustics as the SM57 isn't suited to lower noise instruments. The AKGP170 seems worth a shot. It's a small diaphragm one though. Have heard good things about Audix i5 and they're not overly expensive too.

maltingsaudio

Somethings up somewhere. An SM57 into an MG10 the channel gain I would expect to use for a decent signal would be about 11/12 o’clock thenwith the channel fader at 0 and the master at 0 there should be more than enough input into the Focusrite. First thing I would do is turn the comp off and secondly check the leads. My guess is you’ve got the MG compressor on max or you’ve got the pad on the channel switched on