Why is ninth?

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PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 4798
Why is a ninth considered functionally different from a second? I guess same question applies to other interval beyond the octave.
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  • JalapenoJalapeno Frets: 3856
    Answered your own question - it's above the octave innit ? (Odder that even numbers aren't ;) )
    Imagine something sharp and witty here ......

    Feedback
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  • A 2nd would usually come at the expense of the 3rd. I find if I use a 2nd interval its usually playing a 2-note chord (1st and minor 2nd for example), whereas if I see a 9th chord it usually to me suggests a fuller chord with a dominant 7th. I hope that makes actual sense, perhaps someone can shed some light and correct if im wrong
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  • John_PJohn_P Frets: 2329
    A 2nd would usually come at the expense of the 3rd. I find if I use a 2nd interval its usually playing a 2-note chord (1st and minor 2nd for example), whereas if I see a 9th chord it usually to me suggests a fuller chord with a dominant 7th. I hope that makes actual sense, perhaps someone can shed some light and correct if im wrong
    That’s pretty much how I think of it.    
    I’d usually say sus2 and add9 to show it’s instrad of, or as well as the 3rd.  
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  • GreatapeGreatape Frets: 56
    Yep. If it's replacing the third you get a sus2 chord, not a 'sus9.' If not replacing the third:  if there's a b7 chord already it becomes a ninth chord. If there is a 6 chord you get a 6/9 chord. If it's a triad you get an add 9 chord, etc...just convention...
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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 9765
    a ninth usually implies a seventh is also present, otherwise it's an "add 9" or a "sus 2"
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 4798
    I was thinking melodically as well as harmonically but hadn't twigged on the third substitution. Obv a 2nd and 3rd together would be extremely dissonant.
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  • jpfampsjpfamps Frets: 1723
    I was thinking melodically as well as harmonically but hadn't twigged on the third substitution. Obv a 2nd and 3rd together would be extremely dissonant.

    There are several chord inversions that have both the second and the major 3rd in the same octave, for example this inversion of E9 popularised by T-Bone Walker.

    D 12th fret D string, F# 11th fret G string, G#  9th fret B string, E 12th fret top E string.

    So the chord tones are: b7th, 9th, maj 3rd and root, with a major second in the middle of the chord.

    These tend to work better further up the neck, as intervals become less dissonant at higher pitches.

    There are also plenty of lap steel steel tuning that have a tone interval in them as well, eg several of the common E13 variations, and the 6th tunings (A6th, C6th etc).

    Bottom line: you can use the 9th / 2nd in the same octave, but you have to exercise some caution.
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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 401
    A 9th unusually has the 3rd and 7th in ....a 2nd would be a sus 2 where the minor 3rd is dropped 1 fret ...a add 9 would be a normal 9th without the 7th
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  • carloscarlos Frets: 1673
    I was thinking melodically as well as harmonically but hadn't twigged on the third substitution. Obv a 2nd and 3rd together would be extremely dissonant.
    Depends how you "spread" them, really. Are dom7 and maj7 chords extremely dissonant? They also have two consecutive chord tones.
    For example, play D9 like this x5455x
    Does that sound extremely dissonant to you?
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 3949
    carlos said:
    I was thinking melodically as well as harmonically but hadn't twigged on the third substitution. Obv a 2nd and 3rd together would be extremely dissonant.
    Depends how you "spread" them, really. Are dom7 and maj7 chords extremely dissonant? They also have two consecutive chord tones.
    For example, play D9 like this x5455x
    Does that sound extremely dissonant to you?
    Depends on the instrument too ...... you often play piano or synth chords with the 2nd and the third next to each other .... and the 7th immediately below the root and on piano it sounds fine but on distorted or even clean guitar it probably would sound strange. 

    From a teaching point of view I teach it's a 9th because you've added it above the octave ... that's easy to grasp and also shows them where to put it
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • carloscarlos Frets: 1673
    A guitar's tuning would put a stop to most attempts at playing all tones in a row like that. Unless you have monster fingers or playing on a kid's instrument.
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  • ModellistaModellista Frets: 1287
    edited February 8
    I was thinking melodically as well as harmonically but hadn't twigged on the third substitution. Obv a 2nd and 3rd together would be extremely dissonant.
    Not so.  Have you tried x07500 or 024000?  Am and Em with the 2nd and m3rds present and correct and working together.  Two of the classic guitar chords of all time and they sound beautiful.  The major versions (x07600 and 024100) are just as good.

    I really like semitone juxtapositions.  On their own they're awful but in the context of chords they're usually stunningly good.  The Cmaj7 a semitone apart is wonderful too (x35500 or x32500)
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