1963 Gibson ES 330 - Price/sanity check

roberty

Just played this locally and the owner is open to offers.  1963 Gibson ES 330.  This model seems to represent good value on the vintage market.  The late 60s ones have a narrow nut which seems to be reflected in lower prices

The neck on this example is spot on, medium depth but with a nice fat shoulder, and the amplified sound is fantastic.  Acoustically it sustains well.

The frets are really low but they might have left the factory like this?

The original tuners are in the case and are apparently not working.  It looks like the Schallers have been fitted using the original screw holes?  The holes would be very close together otherwise.  They were installed by the current owner in the 1970s

The pickup pole pieces have been adjusted to quite an aggressive radius so would probably need adjusting, do the poles tend to seize up on these?  I'm guessing it would be straightforward to pop a shim under the bridge pup

Two of the saddles are nylon (e and G), not sure which of the saddles are original and which are replacements.  The ABR is set up backwards at the moment

Case is a 1960's Guild case

Snog, marry, avoid?  What would a fair price be?  Bearing in mind this is through a dealer

GluedtoMusic

roberty said:

It looks like the Schallers have been fitted using the original screw holes?  The holes would be very close together otherwise.  They were installed by the current owner in the 1970s

Looking at the photo the new tuners all point towards the centre of the headstock, it looks like a second hole may have been drilled below the original to fit these.

roberty

GluedtoMusic said:

roberty said:

It looks like the Schallers have been fitted using the original screw holes?  The holes would be very close together otherwise.  They were installed by the current owner in the 1970s

Looking at the photo the new tuners all point towards the centre of the headstock, it looks like a second hole may have been drilled below the original to fit these.

Yeah I was wondering why they're all on an angle.  It appears to be consistent so maybe it was literally to avoid the other hole.  Wonder if the new holes would be covered up by the cases of a set of deluxe

GluedtoMusic

roberty said:

Wonder if the new holes would be covered up by the cases of a set of deluxe

It looks like all the new holes sit within the bottom tip of the impression left by the Klusons, but one other thing to mention is that the original tuners would have used press fit bushings, so the main tuner post hole would have been enlarged to 10mm to fit the Schallers, hopefully this was done on centre to allow a modern set of Kluson style tuners to cover the impressions neatly and the original screw holes.

roberty

GluedtoMusic said:

roberty said:

Wonder if the new holes would be covered up by the cases of a set of deluxe

It looks like all the new holes sit within the bottom tip of the impression left by the Klusons, but one other thing to mention is that the original tuners would have used press fit bushings, so the main tuner post hole would have been enlarged to 10mm to fit the Schallers, hopefully this was done on centre to allow a modern set of Kluson style tuners to cover the impressions neatly and the original screw holes.

Didn't think of that. Hard to test the alignment in a shop. I guess conversion bushings would be another option. Shame, still it buys some bargaining power 

Found a dealer price for an unmodified example: https://www.atbguitars.com/store/product/1964-gibson-es-330-td-hsc-1964es330tsb/

guitars4you

You can put a set of replica style Kluson tuners back on - But you will need the conversion bushes as well for the front of the headstock facia - The hexagnol nuts on the Schaller tuners require a larger hole, but easy enough to put back as was if you take up the vintage style Kluxon option - I've just done like wise on an SG Junior - I hate the luck of those Schallers on such a guitar

Or you can obtain a vintage Kluson style machine head with plastic original style buttons and a modern hexagnol nut - I have them on a Feline DC Lion - Jon @FelineGuitars can tell you which tuners they are - Can't find a pic right now - Will fit in quite easily on that 330 

So 2 options - back to vintage conversion - or modern style but with vintage appearance

ICBM

Is the body refinished? The difference in condition between the body and the back/end of the headstock would be quite surprising if not.

Probably the best solution for the tuners is a set of the modern Gibson/Grover ones with the same footprint as the original Klusons and the threaded front collar. With traditional Kluson-types and conversion bushings, it's usually impossible to hide the marks on the front from the larger Schaller washers.

I would say it's overpriced at £5K even if the body hasn't been refinished, given the state of the headstock.

guitars4you

330's represent good value now in the vintage market compared to many other guitars from that era - Prices have risen in recent years - I feel 5K is pushing it based on the condition looking at the pics supplied

I would not get hung up about a good refret if required - Some say it will devalue the guitar but IMO that is bollocks - What is the point of a set of original frets if to low and worn - And on that 330 it won't have any impact on the value as the tuners are not original anyway - But a good refret with something like 6100 or 6150 will seriously enhance the guitars playing performance

Not sure where you are based but a few good guys around who can help you - bank on 200/250 for a good job

ArchtopDave

I bought a 1964 ES 330 some months ago. It is in really good nick (the whole guitar is in the same state as the Body of the one in your top photo). Mine has had a pair of original PAF's put on it at some stage, which pleases me because my favourite guitarist is Emily Remler (she did the same to her 330). I paid a fraction more than a current new one costs, which seemed excellent value to me.

roberty

ICBM said:

Is the body refinished? The difference in condition between the body and the back/end of the headstock would be quite surprising if not.

Some more photos here:

http://www.treblerockmusic.com/guitars/electric-guitars/products/view/2/771.html

The back of the body looks in the same condition as the neck.  I took the photo below which shows some of the top up close.

I think a refret is in order too, to be honest.

Price-wise I think I know where this is heading...

Blaendulais

@ArchtopDave ;

Wisdom its 2k over surely

NorthernGooner

I know it's a dealer sale but 5k  is punchy money.   I had one from  '64. With the original pickups the output can be a little uneven,  They don't usually have a label either, just a stamp.  As guitars I do like them though: lively 'p90's and light because of no centre block inside. You can have feedback problems though because of the lack of the block. If you're really gassing for one I think you can find better cheaper though. The headstock's a bit chewed up as well as the tuner probs.  I've seen nice one's for £2-3k on the 'bay all original with original case. Though I do know how much gas hurts. 

ArchtopDave

Blaendulais said:

@ArchtopDave ;

Wisdom its 2k over surely

I didn't notice there was a price sticker to begin with. I think you're right.

ICBM

roberty said:

Some more photos here:

http://www.treblerockmusic.com/guitars/electric-guitars/products/view/2/771.html

The back of the body looks in the same condition as the neck.  I took the photo below which shows some of the top up close.

I'm still not convinced that a large amount of it hasn't been refinished or at least oversprayed - the back of the neck looks far too shiny as well, and appears to be clear lacquer over the top of old wear.

You'd need to see it in person to be sure - photo lighting can sometimes do odd things. There's still a huge contrast with the state of the headstock and its finish appearance though, both front and back.

gringopig

.

meltedbuzzbox

Id look at a Memphis/cs one in the Gibson blow outs.
It will probably play better and would be less dubious.

I'd also take the ATB price with a pinch of salt

ArchtopDave

This is mine, which cost over 2k less than the price on that sticker.

Apologies for missing photos ... see posts below.

roberty

ArchtopDave said:

This is mine, which cost over 2k less than the price on that sticker.

Dealer said current owner has had it 40 years?

ArchtopDave

ArchtopDave

roberty

@ArchtopDave that's a beauty mate