Ash at Oil City answers pickup questions:

Funkfingers

Wow! That was quick. 

That Eddy Currents needs locking up.

My question was prompted by a repair job on an 2007 Epiphone LP. I was mulling over whether to:
1) Remove/replace the pickup covers.
2) Replace all of the dogbreath cabling.
3) Bin the whole guitar.

Clearly, option 3 would be harsh. Rewiring from all new components would improve the guitar immensely. The trickiest bit would be getting the Epiphone owner to crack open his wallet. 

Dave_Mc

OilCityPickups said:

Funkfingers said:

TOPIC: Brass versus nickel silver for humbucker covers and baseplates. 

There is plenty of anecdotage about the negative effects of humbucker covers fashioned from brass rather than nickel silver. Is it possible to quantify the volume and tonal losses caused by brass?

In the case of humbucker baseplates, does the material make any significant difference at all? (Case in point, Larry DiMarzio has been cheerfully marketing humbuckers with brass baseplates for half a century.)

How much of the negative reputation of, say, Epiphone waxbuckers is down to their brass covers and how much is the capacitance losses from the shite pots and cabling?

Brass covers really do cause loads of losses ... eddy currents probably being responsible for most of the muffling.  Some folks say brass covers 'mellow out' some harsh humbuckers ... I say get yer ears syringed. 

Epiphone waxbuckers, claggy potting and the wrong wire and magnets ... the least of their worries were the covers! 

And brass compared to nickel-silver baseplates makes absolutely no detectable difference to tone. Pure snobbery as brass 'looks' cheaper. As a maker its actually a little harder to solder than Nickel which is why I'd rather use nickel ... but brass is just as good sound wise. 

Interesting, that's more or less what I was coming round to as well, and I've had one other winder tell me the baseplates made no difference. Very glad to have it confirmed! I've definitely tried pickups I don't much like with nickel-silver, and ones I've preferred with brass, so it doesn't seem to be the overriding factor in tone.

They do look a bit crappier, and I've read (no idea if true) that brass is a bit softer, so if you swap the pickups a lot you might strip the screw holes a bit faster with brass baseplates.

Brass covers do seem to make a noticeable difference, as you said.

Dave_Mc

Funkfingers said:

3) Bin the whole guitar.

Clearly, option 3 would be harsh. 

LOL! 

(As you said, the problem is getting the other person to realise not spending a little is a false economy.)

OilCityPickups

Dave_Mc said:

OilCityPickups said:

Funkfingers said:

TOPIC: Brass versus nickel silver for humbucker covers and baseplates. 

There is plenty of anecdotage about the negative effects of humbucker covers fashioned from brass rather than nickel silver. Is it possible to quantify the volume and tonal losses caused by brass?

In the case of humbucker baseplates, does the material make any significant difference at all? (Case in point, Larry DiMarzio has been cheerfully marketing humbuckers with brass baseplates for half a century.)

How much of the negative reputation of, say, Epiphone waxbuckers is down to their brass covers and how much is the capacitance losses from the shite pots and cabling?

Brass covers really do cause loads of losses ... eddy currents probably being responsible for most of the muffling.  Some folks say brass covers 'mellow out' some harsh humbuckers ... I say get yer ears syringed. 

Epiphone waxbuckers, claggy potting and the wrong wire and magnets ... the least of their worries were the covers! 

And brass compared to nickel-silver baseplates makes absolutely no detectable difference to tone. Pure snobbery as brass 'looks' cheaper. As a maker its actually a little harder to solder than Nickel which is why I'd rather use nickel ... but brass is just as good sound wise. 

Interesting, that's more or less what I was coming round to as well, and I've had one other winder tell me the baseplates made no difference. Very glad to have it confirmed! I've definitely tried pickups I don't much like with nickel-silver, and ones I've preferred with brass, so it doesn't seem to be the overriding factor in tone.

They do look a bit crappier, and I've read (no idea if true) that brass is a bit softer, so if you swap the pickups a lot you might strip the screw holes a bit faster with brass baseplates.

Brass covers do seem to make a noticeable difference, as you said.

Actually I fend brass is a bit more durable ... the legs don't bend so easily with ham fisted postmen or customs inspectors. This may well be because as brass is cheaper they tend to use it a bit thicker ... still more of a bugger to solder mind ... big iron and flux paste needed. 

Philly_Q

I like the brass baseplates on DiMarzios.  I don't know why, I guess I just find them more aesthetically pleasing than nickel-silver ones.

OilCityPickups

Philly_Q said:

I like the brass baseplates on DiMarzios.  I don't know why, I guess I just find them more aesthetically pleasing than nickel-silver ones.

I like using black powder coated brass for more rocky pickups ... tough and durable and look the part too. 

The trouble is with brass is that some of my own industry ... who aim at the more cork sniffy end of the pickup making market are all too happy to perpetuate the myths like brass baseplates sound different to nickel - because it allows them special positions as bringers of the sacred wisdom to us poor unenlightened. Of course it allows them a higher price too :-) 

Nickel silver is prettier not better for baseplates.  

Just like paper in oil caps and wood spacers in PAFs ... nickel baseplates for the look not the sound. 

Dave_Mc

OilCityPickups said:

Actually I fend brass is a bit more durable ... the legs don't bend so easily with ham fisted postmen or customs inspectors. This may well be because as brass is cheaper they tend to use it a bit thicker ... still more of a bugger to solder mind ... big iron and flux paste needed. 

Oh wow, that's very interesting. I'm always scared of having to bend the legs in case I break them! (Occasionally you have to to get them to fit into the ring properly- maybe they got bent in the post as you said!)

OilCityPickups said:

Philly_Q said:

I like the brass baseplates on DiMarzios.  I don't know why, I guess I just find them more aesthetically pleasing than nickel-silver ones.

I like using black powder coated brass for more rocky pickups ... tough and durable and look the part too. 

I think the Dimarzios in my Axis had that (at least I assume they did, the baseplates were black). It does look pretty badass for heavier stuff.

earwighoney

Hello Ash, whatever happened to your NOS wire pickups? Are you planning to make some more of them? I think you had one on your site for a P90 perhaps at one point?

OilCityPickups

earwighoney said:

Hello Ash, whatever happened to your NOS wire pickups? Are you planning to make some more of them? I think you had one on your site for a P90 perhaps at one point?

I do intend to make more ... there's a small run of Strat ones and probably P90s coming shortly. I had a week's holiday in Finland last month (first time off in two years) so I'm currently clearing the dozens of rewinds that make up the other part of my business :-)  Autumn is normally my time for new projects and continuing more labour intensive ideas.  

Dave_Mc

OilCityPickups said:

Nickel silver is prettier not better for baseplates.  

Just like paper in oil caps and wood spacers in PAFs ... nickel baseplates for the look not the sound. 

Sorry for bringing this question back again, I meant to ask it alongside the other stuff I was asking, but I forgot!

Am I right in assuming that the baseplate-not-affecting-the-tone thing applies to all pickups with baseplates (e.g. P90s, Filtertrons etc.), not just PAF-style humbuckers?

Thanks  

OilCityPickups

Dave_Mc said:

OilCityPickups said:

Nickel silver is prettier not better for baseplates.  

Just like paper in oil caps and wood spacers in PAFs ... nickel baseplates for the look not the sound. 

Sorry for bringing this question back again, I meant to ask it alongside the other stuff I was asking, but I forgot!

Am I right in assuming that the baseplate-not-affecting-the-tone thing applies to all pickups with baseplates (e.g. P90s, Filtertrons etc.), not just PAF-style humbuckers?

Thanks  

Yep ... all really apart from Telecaster bridge pickups ... where changing a ferrous iron baseplate for a brass one will change the Tele nature of the tone ... but that's because only a steel one will change the tone in a positive way brass will make little discernible difference apart from maintaining some of steel's shielding properties.
Firebird baseplates will make no difference as there is already a steel plate under the bobbins and magnets that acts like a Tele's baseplate and ups the inductance.  

Dave_Mc

OilCityPickups said:

Dave_Mc said:

OilCityPickups said:

Nickel silver is prettier not better for baseplates.  

Just like paper in oil caps and wood spacers in PAFs ... nickel baseplates for the look not the sound. 

Sorry for bringing this question back again, I meant to ask it alongside the other stuff I was asking, but I forgot!

Am I right in assuming that the baseplate-not-affecting-the-tone thing applies to all pickups with baseplates (e.g. P90s, Filtertrons etc.), not just PAF-style humbuckers?

Thanks  

Yep ... all really apart from Telecaster bridge pickups ... where changing a ferrous iron baseplate for a brass one will change the Tele nature of the tone ... but that's because only a steel one will change the tone in a positive way brass will make little discernible difference apart from maintaining some of steel's shielding properties.
Firebird baseplates will make no difference as there is already a steel plate under the bobbins and magnets that acts like a Tele's baseplate and ups the inductance.  

Awesome, thanks Ash

(Can't believe I forgot about Tele pickups, you're quite right of course, I just wasn't thinking about them because I was thinking more about Gibson-style baseplates!  )

earwighoney

OilCityPickups said:

earwighoney said:

Hello Ash, whatever happened to your NOS wire pickups? Are you planning to make some more of them? I think you had one on your site for a P90 perhaps at one point?

I do intend to make more ... there's a small run of Strat ones and probably P90s coming shortly. I had a week's holiday in Finland last month (first time off in two years) so I'm currently clearing the dozens of rewinds that make up the other part of my business :-)  Autumn is normally my time for new projects and continuing more labour intensive ideas.  

Cheers Ash, did you have a nice time in Finland? I imagine the summers there must be lovely.

I'm always appreciative to see your rewind threads, like the Hagstrom bass one from the last few weeks.  Have you ever rewound humbuckers from the old Hagstrom guitars by chance?  I have a 1970 HIIN, well the carcass of one, original pickups (lots of others things too) are long gone, I was wondering what the original pickups were like.

Thanks for the info about the NOS wire.  I've been spending a little too much time thinking about a NOS wire Firebird pickup.  Do you think you might make one?

OilCityPickups

earwighoney said:

OilCityPickups said:

earwighoney said:

Hello Ash, whatever happened to your NOS wire pickups? Are you planning to make some more of them? I think you had one on your site for a P90 perhaps at one point?

I do intend to make more ... there's a small run of Strat ones and probably P90s coming shortly. I had a week's holiday in Finland last month (first time off in two years) so I'm currently clearing the dozens of rewinds that make up the other part of my business :-)  Autumn is normally my time for new projects and continuing more labour intensive ideas.  

Cheers Ash, did you have a nice time in Finland? I imagine the summers there must be lovely.

I'm always appreciative to see your rewind threads, like the Hagstrom bass one from the last few weeks.  Have you ever rewound humbuckers from the old Hagstrom guitars by chance?  I have a 1970 HIIN, well the carcass of one, original pickups (lots of others things too) are long gone, I was wondering what the original pickups were like.

Thanks for the info about the NOS wire.  I've been spending a little too much time thinking about a NOS wire Firebird pickup.  Do you think you might make one?

summers are clear and hot in southern to middle Finland ... clear and midge infested in the north :-) Pretty much like the Scottish highlands. I loved it as I always do ... the people are even nicer than the land ...

Anyway ... never rewound a 1970s HIIN pickup have a feeling they were a bit 'T Top' around the edges ... going away to do some research! 

And when I get some covers in I'll do a NOS Firebird cos you asked :-) 

Seziertisch

earwighoney said:

OilCityPickups said:

earwighoney said:

Hello Ash, whatever happened to your NOS wire pickups? Are you planning to make some more of them? I think you had one on your site for a P90 perhaps at one point?

I do intend to make more ... there's a small run of Strat ones and probably P90s coming shortly. I had a week's holiday in Finland last month (first time off in two years) so I'm currently clearing the dozens of rewinds that make up the other part of my business :-)  Autumn is normally my time for new projects and continuing more labour intensive ideas.  

Cheers Ash, did you have a nice time in Finland? I imagine the summers there must be lovely.

I'm always appreciative to see your rewind threads, like the Hagstrom bass one from the last few weeks.  Have you ever rewound humbuckers from the old Hagstrom guitars by chance?  I have a 1970 HIIN, well the carcass of one, original pickups (lots of others things too) are long gone, I was wondering what the original pickups were like.

Thanks for the info about the NOS wire.  I've been spending a little too much time thinking about a NOS wire Firebird pickup.  Do you think you might make one?

I have one in the bridge of my Les Paul, and it brings great joy to all who hear it.

earwighoney

OilCityPickups said:

summers are clear and hot in southern to middle Finland ... clear and midge infested in the north :-) Pretty much like the Scottish highlands. I loved it as I always do ... the people are even nicer than the land ...

Anyway ... never rewound a 1970s HIIN pickup have a feeling they were a bit 'T Top' around the edges ... going away to do some research! 

And when I get some covers in I'll do a NOS Firebird cos you asked :-) 

It looks like a beautiful place for sure, and you can get reindeer meat to eat too. I've cooked/eaten it a few times, probably descretated to their terms (made reindeer curry) but it was some of the best things I've ever cooked.  You like Firebird pickups, I like Firebird pickups, consequently I presume you would like also like one of my other great loves in my life - 'the cuz' (curries). Reindeer is a wonderful meat.

Yeah I think I might know what you mean, the people make the nation.  Anyway great to hear you had a fantastic time over there, aside from those pesky midges...

I'm a fan of old Hagstroms.  They aren't as well made as some other old guitars, but they have a pretty cool character to them. I need to get my old battered one restored one day.  If I ever do a winding course at your workshop (one day!), I will bring it along with me.

Yeah please, give me a shout if you do ever get around to making a NOS Firebird.  I've loved the sound of them for years, but I only finally got around to having a guitar with one this year, and they are simply a joy to plug in.  I don't know much about NOS wire, but I remember reading something you wrote about a few pickups you made with it and it was supposed to be out of the world right?  Maybe the combination of NOS wire with a Firebird would put hairs on my chest/restore a few more hairs to my thinning crown? I can't say for sure, but I'm sure it will be glorious!

Anyway, sorry for rambling on.

OilCityPickups

earwighoney said:

OilCityPickups said:

summers are clear and hot in southern to middle Finland ... clear and midge infested in the north :-) Pretty much like the Scottish highlands. I loved it as I always do ... the people are even nicer than the land ...

Anyway ... never rewound a 1970s HIIN pickup have a feeling they were a bit 'T Top' around the edges ... going away to do some research! 

And when I get some covers in I'll do a NOS Firebird cos you asked :-) 

It looks like a beautiful place for sure, and you can get reindeer meat to eat too. I've cooked/eaten it a few times, probably descretated to their terms (made reindeer curry) but it was some of the best things I've ever cooked.  You like Firebird pickups, I like Firebird pickups, consequently I presume you would like also like one of my other great loves in my life - 'the cuz' (curries). Reindeer is a wonderful meat.

Yeah I think I might know what you mean, the people make the nation.  Anyway great to hear you had a fantastic time over there, aside from those pesky midges...

I'm a fan of old Hagstroms.  They aren't as well made as some other old guitars, but they have a pretty cool character to them. I need to get my old battered one restored one day.  If I ever do a winding course at your workshop (one day!), I will bring it along with me.

Yeah please, give me a shout if you do ever get around to making a NOS Firebird.  I've loved the sound of them for years, but I only finally got around to having a guitar with one this year, and they are simply a joy to plug in.  I don't know much about NOS wire, but I remember reading something you wrote about a few pickups you made with it and it was supposed to be out of the world right?  Maybe the combination of NOS wire with a Firebird would put hairs on my chest/restore a few more hairs to my thinning crown? I can't say for sure, but I'm sure it will be glorious!

Anyway, sorry for rambling on.

The nice thing about NOS wire ... if it;'s good stuff, is that it hasn't been made with modern computer controlled technology and so has some extra variance in diameter due to the drawing process. 

Can't beat a good curry ... and reindeer curry sounds pretty good to me ... 

Did you know the nickname for mozzarella cheese in Finland is Moomin Meat? I fell about laughing when I found it out!    

earwighoney

OilCityPickups said:

Did you know the nickname for mozzarella cheese in Finland is Moomin Meat? I fell about laughing when I found it out!    

That's glorious.

'Mummy, what is this on my pizza?'
'It is the meat of your hero, Moomintroll.'

'It is delicious'

timmypix

Hi Ash,
Resurrecting this thread while I consider some options. How would you say the Djenerator compares to other common ceramic mid-high output pickups like the Duncan Distortion or Gibson 500T? The description says it's powerful and clear, but not much of an indication on EQ/voicing/feel.

OilCityPickups

timmypix said:

Hi Ash,
Resurrecting this thread while I consider some options. How would you say the Djenerator compares to other common ceramic mid-high output pickups like the Duncan Distortion or Gibson 500T? The description says it's powerful and clear, but not much of an indication on EQ/voicing/feel.

Super tight bass, but mid and treble of a fairly even tone curve so as not to destroy your earwax with treble :-) 
Not as saturated as a 500T or for that matter a Duncan Distortion - built to give as much clarity as possible for the output level. Designed to give a signal that modern signal processing and emulation is comfortable with - you'll chose a different pickup if you are glam rock supergroup in face makeup :-)