Major and Minor keys

theflyisback

I’ve been playing guitar and writing songs to what I would consider a fairly decent standard for 20 years. 

Ive never been much to look into the theory side of things, it’s always been a case of very much playing by ear and, ahem, being ‘inspired’ along the way by other songs I like by the bands I like to some extent.

Ive been analysing my bands current set in a bit more detail recently and have noticed that the songs that people seem to like best are all the ones (and there aren’t many sadly) that are all in the major key.  We have some, I think, technically brilliant songs in minor keys but they seem to be taken as sad dirges and drones. The major key ones are where the set ‘lifts’ and seems to add a happiness. We’re not a sad band though. 

is this really such a big thing or is it just me? Does anyone consciously write in a particular key/style to dictate the mood of their stuff?

I think naturally as I guitarist more than anything I tend to start playing and crafting a song in minor keys.  I’m bloody struggling though to play major dominated chords. It’s just not happening. It doesn’t sound like me!

ive never considered things at this level of detail before but even at a mainstream level the mood of a memorable song and the character of a band is affected so much by the key it’s in.  I’ve been bamboozled by all these YouTube vids where someone has reworked these big famous songs from
minor to major and vice versa.

sev112

Personally I’ve never understood major keys and “happy”.  But I appear to be in a minority 

mart

Major keys are generally held to be happy and minor keys sad. It’s well known that D minor is the saddest key of all.

Lestratcaster

I've never been conscious of whether if its major or minor, just if a certain chord progression fits. As I've been writing in dropped tunings a lot the classic open, 3rd, 5th and 8th always makes it a minor progression whereas open, 4th and 9th I hear as major.

I've been rearranging a mate's songs into acoustic and its pretty interesting figuring out keys and stuff for the singer's vocal range.

sev112

Guitar solo part of Staurway to Heaven, in Aminor.  Sounds pretty happy and upbeat to me

hapoy Birthday in Major sounds quite the opposite, a bit of a dirge.

sev112

What key is it if there is one sharp?  Theoretically?

G major or Eminor.

i don’t get minor keys.
i understand minor chords, and I get that some of the modes are more minor.

but how do you get a minor key signature! Why !  
Why do we only pick two of the 7 modes and say only two (minor and major) of them can be called the key ?

So is the key signature of one sharp A Dorian?

theflyisback

Perhaps it’s not necessarily a happiness sadness thing but the major key songs (in my bands set) are seemingly a bit more universally catchy and memorable by consensus when I’ve asked, and when I’ve observed at gigs and stuff. 

Just seems to be more than just a coincidence. 

Lestratcaster

G major at first hand, but E minor will still have the F# as the 1 sharp. 

The relative minor will be the 6th interval of the major (parent key). So if G is the parent key E is the 6th interval so would be become the (relative) minor.

A Dorian is a mode which would refer to the G major scale but starting on the second note. The intervals are different as the scale would start on a different note.

sev112

Lestratcaster said:

G major at first hand, but E minor will still have the F# as the 1 sharp. 

The relative minor will be the 6th interval of the major (parent key). So if G is the parent key E is the 6th interval so would be become the (relative) minor.

A Dorian is a mode which would refer to the G major scale but starting on the second note. The intervals are different as the scale would start on a different note.

Yep, I know, hence asking - which one of the two is the key then  ?
it can’t be an interpretative thing surely. It’s a key signature.  People get examined in this sort of thing at o level and grade 5 theory.

and same why I said A Dorian- it has the same F#

Lestratcaster

sev112 said:

Lestratcaster said:

G major at first hand, but E minor will still have the F# as the 1 sharp. 

The relative minor will be the 6th interval of the major (parent key). So if G is the parent key E is the 6th interval so would be become the (relative) minor.

A Dorian is a mode which would refer to the G major scale but starting on the second note. The intervals are different as the scale would start on a different note.

Yep, I know, hence asking - which one of the two is the key then  ?
it can’t be an interpretative thing surely. It’s a key signature.  People get examined in this sort of thing at o level and grade 5 theory.

and same why I said A Dorian- it has the same F#

Either. They're the same cos they share the same sharp. Usually depends on the first chord though. If it starts with a G its more than likely a major key.

A dorian is a minor mode though, the F# acts as a major 6 interval.

viz

sev112 said:

Why do we only pick two of the 7 modes and say only two (minor and major) of them can be called the key ?

So is the key signature of one sharp A Dorian?

Yes it can be. 

http://i.imgur.com/9VgTTkf.jpg

But in reality because major and natural minor are soooo much more common than Lydian, Mixolydian, Dorian and Phrygian, the key signature is normally reserved for them. Therefore Dorian songs are normally key signatured as though they were natural minor, and have their 6th notes raised by a sharp wherever they appear in the music, rather than baked into the key signature. 

http://i.imgur.com/kOvxctr.jpg

But as you can see, both options are possible. 

It’s a classic Grade 5 theory exam question to show a piece of music with a key sig of zero sharps and flats, and ask what the key is, to trick the pupil into saying C major or A minor, whereas in fact it’s in G Mixolydian or D Dorian or whatever. 

viz

sev112 said:

Personally I’ve never understood major keys and “happy”.  But I appear to be in a minority 

I’ve lolled this due to the possibly unintentional pun in ‘minority’

EricTheWeary

Plenty of examples of songs in minor keys that are happy or in major keys that are sad. I was thinking about Needle and the Damage Done which is about a miserable song as you can imagine but it’s a collection of ( mostly) major chords. Bit harder the other way around but Jamming by Bob Marley? A lot of reggae and funk is in minor keys and a lot of it is cheery. 
Lot of it is down to tempo, lyrics, how it’s sung,etc,etc, 

viz

EricTheWeary said:

Plenty of examples of songs in minor keys that are happy or in major keys that are sad. I was thinking about Needle and the Damage Done which is about a miserable song as you can imagine but it’s a collection of ( mostly) major chords. Bit harder the other way around but Jamming by Bob Marley? A lot of reggae and funk is in minor keys and a lot of it is cheery. 
Lot of it is down to tempo, lyrics, how it’s sung,etc,etc, 

My go-to examples of sad major and happy minor are

Sad major:
In the Bleak Mid Winter (Holst version)
Everybody Hurts
Misty


Happy minor:
Putting on the Ritz. 

close2u

Take Dreams by Fleetwood Mac.
The chords are F, G and Am (or slight variations / extensions of those chords.
The F chord is prominent and sounds like home.
On sheet music it has no sharps or flats.
Therefore it must be in the key of C right?

Erm … it is in the key of C but has no C chord anywhere in the song whatever!!
What??

That is because it can be described as  modal progression in F Lydian (4th mode of C).

viz

close2u said:

Take Dreams by Fleetwood Mac.
The chords are F, G and Am (or slight variations / extensions of those chords.
The F chord is prominent and sounds like home.
On sheet music it has no sharps or flats.
Therefore it must be in the key of C right?

Erm … it is in the key of C but has no C chord anywhere in the song whatever!!
What??

That is because it can be described as  modal progression in F Lydian (4th mode of C).

These ambiguous songs without many directional cues are always difficult to determine but I’d say the home note of Dreams is the G, because the tick-tock of F to G settles on the tock not the tick, to my ear anyway. So it’s in G mixolydian - the F is the bVII; the Am is the ii. But it doesn’t matter, it’s ambiguous, and it’s deffo not in C

Danny1969

I would say Dreams IS in C ...despite the fact there's no C in it ... strange but solo over in in C major and every note will fit

sev112

12 Bar Blues - clearly the most miserable unhappy music there is
3 major chords, I, IV and V

so, say, Emaj, Amaj, Bmaj 
but we play a Minor Pentatonic over it .........

viz

sev112 said:

12 Bar Blues - clearly the most miserable unhappy music there is
3 major chords, I, IV and V

so, say, Emaj, Amaj, Bmaj 
but we play a Minor Pentatonic over it .........

It’s fair to say blues isn’t 100% diatonic

Danny1969

It seems C is the home chord, G being the 5th and all it's just it keeps the tension and never actually "goes home"  ... the vocal is in C major therefore M'lud I conclude it is in C maj despite never going there. 

However @Viz I know you extremely knowledgeable in the area of music theory so I'm interested in what key you would think ? 

viz

Danny1969 said:

It seems C is the home chord, G being the 5th and all it's just it keeps the tension and never actually "goes home"  ... the vocal is in C major therefore M'lud I conclude it is in C maj despite never going there. 

However @Viz I know you extremely knowledgeable in the area of music theory so I'm interested in what key you would think ? 

That’s perfectly possible - it just all hinges on where you hear home. I hear it concluding on G, you hear it on C. It’s so ambiguous, we could both be right - so could close2u. 

It’s like one of those cube wire diagrams. You can flip it so it’s convex or concave; both can be perceived as correct. 

Sweet Home Alabama is in D though.