Best way to practice tricky licks/song parts

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AdiAdi Frets: 331
Hi guys,

I'm looking for some advice on how to practice difficult licks/song parts. One approach to that is to sit down with a metronome and go slow until you can go fast.

That doesn't work too well for me , often I hit the wall and can't go any faster without going all sloppy ( and the speed I'm stuck at is usually around 75% tempo of the actual song).

I'm also not too sure how long I should practice particular lick,  I usually stay on something for a week or so pretty intensively and then get bored/frustrated with lack of progress. Does it mean that the part is too difficult for my level or should I just chip at it for a longer period of time?

All the best.

Adrian.
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  • fastonebazfastonebaz Frets: 4065
    Steve vai used to practice for hours at a time.  Maybe just keep at it for hours for days and weeks until you crack it.   Seemed to work for him. 
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  • robertyroberty Frets: 10893
    The trick is when you slow down you have to perfect the movements. There should be no tension in your hands and body and your hands should feel relaxed and fluid. Focus on making your movements economical. Isolate any particular points in a phrase where you are struggling or straining and correct these. It should feel effortless to play
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  • robertyroberty Frets: 10893
    Also don't focus on the same thing for too long. You should vary your practice from day to day and only focus on the same lick or exercise for a few minutes at a time (up to say 5 mins). You'll be amazed at what happens when you practice something for 3 minutes every day. Playing the same thing over and over again for hours is ineffective. And practicing something with poor technique is also ineffective
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  • AdiAdi Frets: 331
    Some valid points from both of you and some contradicting information at the same time. 

    I don't really know how Vai did it, my back is sore after practicing for 2 hours straight and my concentration level drops down dramatically,  it's much more effective for me to practice in shorter intervals but more often.

    If it comes to practicing slowly, with economical movement etc it's all fine and dandy until I try to play it at speed, then it all falls apart, it makes me realise that it might not be true that you have to play slow to eventually play fast.
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590
    Walk through the piece slowly, focusing on the sound you want, and how you will move left and right hands to get those sounds. Unless it’s a very short piece then you will probably want to do this in sections. Play it through at slow speed to join the sections, but not so fast that you get any of the movements wrong. Put the guitar down and walk away. Sleep on it. When you come back the next day your brain will have processed what it’s learned, and you’ll be able to play the piece more easily. Rinse and repeat over several days.

    Vai’s mammoth practice sessions are legendary, but not necessarily the best way to learn. Most of us learn things better in short stints, followed by intervals which allow our brains to process the information.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • sev112sev112 Frets: 2739
    One way I find quite useful in classical music, where there are lots and lots of notes and chords at the same time

    is to start art off playing only the notes on the beats, then add the notes on the half bests, then add the quarter beats etc.

    then as I add the xtra beats I can also do the slow then fast technique
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  • robertyroberty Frets: 10893
    edited March 2019
    Yeah you do have to play fast eventually. Make sure you don't tense up when you do. You do have to attempt and fail a lot. Find the specific areas which are causing problems and slow them down and analyse them. Find out what it is about them that that causes you to not be able to play them and then focus on that difficulty. You can make up your own exercises for these if they are particularly challenging
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  • robertyroberty Frets: 10893
    The point is that mindlessly playing the same thing over and over again is not a good way to improve. You should be alert to what you're doing and thinking about it as you do it. It should feel fresh
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  • One thing that's important is to get the rhythm right and to count so it stays in time so you know what to play within a certain timeframe. Before learning riffs I make sure I can tap the rhythm of it first, then sing it so I instil it in my head.

    Then metronome on and getting the timing right. Same for any phrases or licks that are really fast. Ingrain it into muscle memory.
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  • VeganicVeganic Frets: 673
    Have you got a particular piece in mind?

    The internet is full of advice on this but you might something more constuctive with the particular rather than the general.

    Post something specific and let's see how it goes.
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  • DLMDLM Frets: 2513
    edited March 2019

    Wis for @Veganic

    What is it you're trying to play? Where does it break down?

    Video of yourself coming unstuck would also help (post it as unlisted on YouTube, then the link will only appear in this one thread, and not come up in searches, etc.).

    Tip to be running with: force yourself to play the part (a short section, not a whole piece) 15% faster than your fastest "successful" metronome speed (X). It'll sound like shit. But after a couple of repetitions, reset the metronome to 3-5% faster than X.

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  • from reading your post it sounds like you are working on trying to pick fast (where you are talking about using a metronome). Is this the case?
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  • Th4fonzTh4fonz Frets: 227
    I dont know what kind of licks your trying to learn but if it has gain, practice playing them clean.  
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  • VibetronicVibetronic Frets: 1036
    I think it works differently for everyone really. I prefer to get parts I'm learning memorised...then try and work on the speed/difficulty aspect. I also hate playing to a metronome - I use a drum machine instead (EZDrummer), always found the noise of a metronome massively distracting!
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  • DLMDLM Frets: 2513

    @Vibetronic Both have their place, in my opinion. @octatonic posted about "doubling up the grid" here:

    http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/2174598/#Comment_2174598

    Drum machines are great for that sort of thing.

    Metronomes can get very :bleep_bloop:

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  • VibetronicVibetronic Frets: 1036
    DLM said:

    @Vibetronic Both have their place, in my opinion. @octatonic posted about "doubling up the grid" here:

    http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/2174598/#Comment_2174598

    Drum machines are great for that sort of thing.

    Metronomes can get very :bleep_bloop:

    yes, that totally makes sense. It is indeed the noise they make more than anything else :)
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  • DLMDLM Frets: 2513

    I've done so much metronome time over the years that I can put up with it, but I need to get a recording "rig" in place again to practice over drum/percussion sounds again. I used my old set-up far more for that than for recording – just playing MIDI/VST drum patterns at different tempi.

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  • Mark1960Mark1960 Frets: 326
    Couple of comments - First regarding how long does it take to learn something. There's an old saying the amateurs practice 'till they get it right, professionals practice 'till they can't get it wrong. Obviously that will vary from person to person, but in essence you can't over practice, just do it in smaller sections, for me 20 minutes is enough before i move onto something else. Secondly - I always make sure I know the solo in my head first, so that I can correctly learn the fingering. The last thing you want to do is practice it, and get it wrong in the same place all the time. I find recording the chords on my phone and playing over the top works well, as you can do the chords at 80% while learning then do another recording faster when you can cope. Just keep trying things and you will find what works best for you.
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  • AdiAdi Frets: 331
    Thanks for all the replies guys, some very valuable info here. There's a few things I'm currently working on, the main ones are:
    Opening lick from the Final Countdown solo and quick run from Into The Fire solo by Dokken.
    The first one seems to be a real bugger , I just can't get it right at decent speed , especially first arpeggios causes me a headache. I can't play it clean and up to speed despite going at it for nearly a week.
    The second one is slowly coming together after quite a few weeks of practice but still not as quick as the recording. I'll try to record myself and post it here for your evaluation. 
    Regards.
    Adrian.
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  • @Adi It's very funny you should be learning The Final Countdown because I recently had to play that song and found the solo deceptively difficult.
    I've been playing for over 20 years, and that solo was a bugger for me to master.
    The tricky thing is achieving that 'swirling' effect created by the rhythmic motif of those arpeggios, maintaining the integrity of the demi-semiquavers and the semiquavers, without it all sounding like semiquavers.

    For me, the trick was so practice very slowly, and really being aware of where in the beat the demi-semiquavers occur, and really making a point of accenting them, and pretty much playing them as quickly as I could to make time for the next note.

    I also found focussing on the demi-semi that lands on beat 3 and using that as an 'anchor' to keep the timing solid really helped.

    This would be much much easier to explain in a video


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