Acoustic panel positioning

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LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
edited April 2019 in Studio & Recording
I'm experiencing a bit of echo in my newly converted garage, so when there's playback or when I'm playing guitars its too echoey. The walls were plastered with insulated soundboard underneath but that's more for soundproofing and insulation rather than to stop the boomy room syndrome thing.

I know you can get those acoustic foam pad things to stop the sound from bouncing round the room, but what's the best positioning for them? The trouble I'm also having is my monitors are positioned at the back of the room on the far right facing inwards as I'm only using half the length of the room (so I can only use half the LED lights to save power as I have a front and back switch). Facing the monitors across the length of the room (which is recommended by people mixing) isn't practical as the sound faces the back of my house from the garage. Positioning it the other way would mean the neighbours can see through the window at what I'm doing.

So with that dilemma where should I place the foam? Behind the monitors and dotted around on surrounding walls? I won't need any on the ceiling will I? I'm only using this room to play guitar not mix. Any guitar stuff will be direct via an interface I would think but playback would be via the monitors. So wanna keep it low cost and basic and still do the trick.
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Comments

  • WhistlerWhistler Frets: 322
    edited March 2019
    The less sound can escape, the more it will bounce around inside your new room. As guitars go down to around 80Hz I would not recommend foam panelling because it is usually supplied so thin it will not help much in the bottom 2 octaves. Thicker foam or, cheaper and more usual, ordinary, everyday fluffy insulation like you put in your loft, a minimum of 10cm thick although 15 or 20cm will be provide better performance. Wrap them in a breathable fabric, that is, one that you can blow through. Hessian is the cheapest but is not the most glamorous. The technical name for these are acoustic absorbers or acoustic traps.

    Where to put them? Corners especially, also overhead. On walls, place traps level (both vertically and along the wall) to coincide with the area where your and your students' heads (ears, to be specific) are most regularly while you are in the room.

    By the way, the studio acoustics subforum over at gearslutz.com has a treatment reference guide - here. Have a read of section 2, items a to d, under the heading room set-up.
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  • WhistlerWhistler Frets: 322
    edited March 2019
    deleted duplicate
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  • MusicwolfMusicwolf Frets: 3627

    In simple terms - forget foam.  Proper acoustic foam products from people like this https://gikacoustics.co.uk/ have their place but you are far better off building something using Rockwool RW3 https://www.insulationexpress.co.uk/rockwool-rw3-acoustic-insulation-slabs?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI-Ym0kc2d4QIVz5TtCh09igX7EAQYASABEgLh6PD_BwE .  As said above, wrap in 'breathable' fabric.

    You would need panels at least 100mm thick and you can improve their performance by spacing them from the wall (another 100mm).  You need to position them at the 'mirror points'.  To find the mirror points, if you can't do the geometry, sit in your mix position and get somebody to hold a mirror flat against the neighbouring walls.  At the mirror point you will be able to see your monitors in the reflection.

    My home studio, also a converted garage, looks like this   

    Their are panels at the mirror points (left, right and ceiling) plus 'super chunks' in the front corner.  Google 'Broad band acoustic panel DIY', there are loads of build tips.

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  • Note that mine isn't going to be a proper "studio" where I'm a producer who mixes, just a basic room to play some guitar in. So I don't need anything fancy. I think the more furniture that goes in it'll fill it out a bit more (as its quite a large room), I've ordered the first Amazon link and will see how it goes, after all its only £22, if it stops it being slightly echoey (note when the carpet went in and the desk, etc the echo reduced a bit. Its still there but only slight.
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  • MusicwolfMusicwolf Frets: 3627
    At £22 you can try and put it down to experience (we all have to learn and I've tried cheap foam tiles myself in the past - at least they make the room look as though it is used for music).  The problem with thin foam / carpet stuck to the walls / curtains etc is that they can absorb the high frequencies but do absolutely nothing for the mids and lows.  This means that the room can sound 'boxy' and, in a way, that can mean that it's worse.

    For acoustic treatment to do anything it needs to be dense (RW3 is 60kg m-3) and it needs to be placed where the air is moving (as it is converting the kinetic energy of the moving air molecules into heat).  For sound waves bouncing around the room there is no air movement at the wall (a node).  The greatest movement is 1/4 wavelength from the wall so even a 100mm thick panel spaced 100mm from the wall is only going to be effective down to a few hundred Hz.

    Professional studios, at least the good ones, have bass traps several feet deep.
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    edited March 2019
    I'll see how I get on with the ones I ordered, they should be here Thursday/Friday. I expect there'll probably be a lot of experimenting (and a few quid spent) before I get it right!

    My other question is how is the best way to stick them on the wall as I don't want use nails/staples, and I've read sticky double-sided tape doesn't hold them up well (falls down after after 10 hours).
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  • WhistlerWhistler Frets: 322
    Velcro
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    Musicwolf said:
    At £22 you can try and put it down to experience (we all have to learn and I've tried cheap foam tiles myself in the past - at least they make the room look as though it is used for music).  The problem with thin foam / carpet stuck to the walls / curtains etc is that they can absorb the high frequencies but do absolutely nothing for the mids and lows.  This means that the room can sound 'boxy' and, in a way, that can mean that it's worse.

    For acoustic treatment to do anything it needs to be dense (RW3 is 60kg m-3) and it needs to be placed where the air is moving (as it is converting the kinetic energy of the moving air molecules into heat).  For sound waves bouncing around the room there is no air movement at the wall (a node).  The greatest movement is 1/4 wavelength from the wall so even a 100mm thick panel spaced 100mm from the wall is only going to be effective down to a few hundred Hz.

    Professional studios, at least the good ones, have bass traps several feet deep.
    This is 100% correct.

    You need bass trapping, not acoustic foam, which is all show and no go.
    If you want to persevere with foam then get some 'no more nails' but this is harder to remove than using staples or nails.
    Some people glue them to ply sheets which are then hung like pictures.

    But in the strongest terms possible I urge you to do this properly and not waste time with acoustic foam.
    It doesn't work, it only makes things worse.

    Entry level for acoustic treatment would be some GIK acoustics corner traps and their larger wall hanging bass traps or something comparable that you can make yourself out of rock wool and a wood frame, covered in acoustic fabric.
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  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 7953
    edited March 2019
    Another vote for GIK/DIY.

    Personally I think the broadband panels look nicer than the foam too
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    edited April 2019
    Ok so I’ve just had a look at the GIK website, those panels look better made and suitable, £53.50 per panel, and they only sell in boxes of 3-4 I think.

    How many would I need in total? And I’ve seen the ones on stands so I wouldn’t have to mount them onto a wall. Are these a good option? There’s a lot of space so plenty of room for a few of them on stands.

    https://gikacoustics.co.uk/product/wooden-and-custom-metal-stands/
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  • WhistlerWhistler Frets: 322
    Start with what you can afford and, if you need, buy some more later on.

    As your room is not a textbook studio control room, my previous advice still stands: fill or straddle the 4 vertical corners, floor to ceiling if possible, and I would start with 5 more traps: one over your head and 4 on floor stands that you position between you and the 4 walls that you face perpendicularly.

    It is not a surprise but all the same nice to see that Musicwolf, octatonic, guitarfishbay and myself are all singing from the same songsheet. 
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  • I can definitely get 4 to start off with, my only other issue is the positioning of the monitors as I’m only using half the room at the moment. I’ll take a photo and post it so you can suggest where exactly should out my 4 panel stands.
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  • Modulus_AmpsModulus_Amps Frets: 2569
    tFB Trader
    There is a youtube series about this, cant remember the name, but it was sponsored by a mic company.

    anyway everytime they put the foam on the wall directly where the speakers were aiming, with both speaker at head height and aimed at your head.

    I am about to do a small room up too, it is long and thing so sound bouncing around it going to be an issue.
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    edited March 2019
    Right, so here's the room taken from the door side of the garage. Im standing on the far left. I know the monitors aren't in the most preferred position but now the current lay out is there for all to see where should I put all my panels?

    *NB my phone isn't attaching the photo!

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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 1079
    edited March 2019
    Ok back on my desktop, here's my room currently. Now I know alot of you will be saying "why are those monitors over there?!" but I'm trying to conserve LED downlight use as I have divided them into 2 sets of 6, half for back of the room, and half for the front so I won't have to use all 12 at once (esp for evening lessons).

    I know the 2 windows there don't make it ideal either.




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  • mrkbmrkb Frets: 6637
    Most leds are about 6w, so there’s not much saving to be had switching them off, why not use the space properly - I suspect you’ve paid a lot to convert the garage!
    Karma......
    Ebay mark7777_1
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  • I have paid alot but since there's pretty much nothing on that side of the room there's not much point turning the light on.

    Also as previously stated the problem with positioning the monitors at the far end facing the length of the room is that the sound will travel towards the garden towards the house, and ideally I want the audio travelling outwards, positioning the desk the other way puts me in full view of the neighbours and them in full of view of me.
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  • WhistlerWhistler Frets: 322
    Honestly, I would not worry about which direction your speakers are facing as higher frequencies are directional and because they have shorter wavelengths they are more easily trapped by the walls from escaping the room - and also are more easily absorbed by thinner acoustic traps. Bass frequencies are omnidirectional, radiating out from the speaker in all directions and because they have longer wavelengths they travel more readily through walls - and also need thicker acoustic traps to be absorbed.
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  • So I'm good to leave them where they are? 

    I emailed the guys at GIK and by the measurements of the room they said I would 20% of the surface of the walls to be treated.
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