Difference between '100% wet' and 'kill dry' on reverb and delay pedals?

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Jonathanthomas83Jonathanthomas83 Frets: 3067
Currently I have no pedals that do 100% wet to try this, but does 100% wet reverb or delay completely cut off the dry signal in the same way a 'kill dry' function would work?

If so, wouldn't a pedal which goes '100% wet' work just as well in a parallel FX setup as a pedal with 'kill dry'? Or am I completely wrong?

@gadget and @PFAllen2, would be interested in your thoughts, given your experience and input into my other thread, for which I'm very grateful, thank you.
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 6870

    If it's a parallel loop and a digital pedal then 100 % wet is needed as there's a slight phase difference between the analog signal and the signal processed through the AD \ DA convertors  ... basically a minute lag that you wouldn't notice until it's in parallel with the uneffected signal then you notice the phase issue

    I use 100 % wet pedal in my Marshall JMP parallel loop and it's fine
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 56973
    Currently I have no pedals that do 100% wet to try this, but does 100% wet reverb or delay completely cut off the dry signal in the same way a 'kill dry' function would work?

    If so, wouldn't a pedal which goes '100% wet' work just as well in a parallel FX setup as a pedal with 'kill dry'?
    Yes, it's the same thing.

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  • Jonathanthomas83Jonathanthomas83 Frets: 3067
    edited May 2019
    Thank you, both. I thought it was, but wanted to check as I can't test anything right now.

    So, my understanding is that the 'mix' control acts as a level control when 'kill dry' is an option. But you'd need a separate level control on your parallel mixer when your pedal only has '100% wet' capability. This sound correct?

    EDIT:This blog from Neunaber confused me https://neunaber.net/blogs/neunaber-audio-blog/why-kill-dry. This is why I ask whether they're the same thing :-)
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  • joetelejoetele Frets: 741
    The Fender Marine Layer reverb has a dry kill switch but with the switch off, the mix knob doesn't go to 100% wet, hence the switch 
    Pedals. 
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  • PFAllen2PFAllen2 Frets: 155
    Thank you, both. I thought it was, but wanted to check as I can't test anything right now.

    So, my understanding is that the 'mix' control acts as a level control when 'kill dry' is an option. But you'd need a separate level control on your parallel mixer when your pedal only has '100% wet' capability. This sound correct?

    EDIT:This blog from Neunaber confused me https://neunaber.net/blogs/neunaber-audio-blog/why-kill-dry. This is why I ask whether they're the same thing :-)
    The distinction made in the Neunaber blog is about the behaviour of a unit when bypassed. While both methods give a full wet signal in operation, a kill dry should give no output in bypass and a 100% wet might pass the dry signal when bypassed.

    However, if you intend to control “bypass” by muting the input signals with a HEX unit, all that nitpicking doesn’t apply! 

    @Jonathanthomas83 what pedals/fx units are you planning on using?
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  • PFAllen2 said:
    Thank you, both. I thought it was, but wanted to check as I can't test anything right now.

    So, my understanding is that the 'mix' control acts as a level control when 'kill dry' is an option. But you'd need a separate level control on your parallel mixer when your pedal only has '100% wet' capability. This sound correct?

    EDIT:This blog from Neunaber confused me https://neunaber.net/blogs/neunaber-audio-blog/why-kill-dry. This is why I ask whether they're the same thing :-)
    The distinction made in the Neunaber blog is about the behaviour of a unit when bypassed. While both methods give a full wet signal in operation, a kill dry should give no output in bypass and a 100% wet might pass the dry signal when bypassed.

    However, if you intend to control “bypass” by muting the input signals with a HEX unit, all that nitpicking doesn’t apply! 

    @Jonathanthomas83 what pedals/fx units are you planning on using?
    This is the further explanation I needed. Sorry, I'm very slow on the uptake! Ha. Thank you, the bypass stuff makes a lot of sense. 

    Unbelievably, I didn't realise that some units like the El Cap and Nova Delay (my two favourites) muted the dry when fully maxed out on the mix, I never had cause to try that before. When I tried the El Cap in my old parallel setup, I failed to try the mix knob at 100% which is incredibly stupid of me. I can't believe I'm admitting it. Needless too say it sounded awful and I came away thinking that only pedals with Kill Dry would work for me, dismissing many without it over the last few years, including the El Cap and Nova.

    Now I fully understand, I can go back to these pedals and enjoy them in my potential new rig.

    I'm also thinking about one of the Neunaber pedals and possibly the Flint. After ruling out many great sounding pedals for so long, I'm finding a lot of things are back on the table now as I try to rebuild. Annoyed with myself in many ways for not having the patience and foresight to move a bloody knob fully clockwise...bonkers!

    If there's any you'd recommend, let me know.
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  • GadgetGadget Frets: 755
    Kill-dry and 100% wet should be the same thing, but it depends on the design of the particular piece of equipment. You might reasonably assume that the mix pot turned all the way up on a device = 100% wet, but that's not always the case (indeed, Neunaber's own Wet V1 didn't go to full 100%), so you may have a bit of dry still present, which may or may not be problematic.

    I also think the Neunaber Blog is conflating two things; kill-dry and bypass. Kill-dry is, as discussed, removing the dry part of the through-put completely (the same as a properly implemented 100% wet). Bypass is what happens to all sound when the effect is off. In most pedals, yes, the dry is still passed through when the effect is bypassed. In rack effects units, sometimes all outputs are muted, sometimes just the wet and sometimes you get a choice. Bear in mind also, that depending on your setup, dry pass-through isn't necessarily 'dry' in the true sense of the word, but whatever's fed through from previous devices.

    I think, therefore.... I... ummmm........
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  • @Gadget yep, really disappointed that WET v1 isn't 100% wet. It's the best sounding version of the lot, so it's a shame.

    Glad I'm not the only one who thinks that blog is confusing the issue.

    I'm going to try to split dry signal as early as possible, so will try to avoid messing up that signal at the earliest opportunity.
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  • GadgetGadget Frets: 755
    ...I'm going to try to split dry signal as early as possible, so will try to avoid messing up that signal at the earliest opportunity.
    This is where the thorny question of "what is a dry signal?..." comes into play.

    If you interpret it literally, as a completely un-affected clean or dirty (except for pre-amp drives, etc.) feeding all your effects in parallel, then you may not like the result.

    Completely dry guitar into a delay, also into a reverb, also into a modulation, etc., all combined at the end can sound a bit anaemic.

    Chances are therefore, that you're going to probably need a mix of series and parallel. This is one reason a stereo chorus is often used as a splitter, as not only does it perform the split, but it also provides a modulated signal for later units to affect.

    I've found that effects of the same type in parallel is generally best, ie: modulations in parallel, delays in parallel, widening effects in parallel, reverbs in parallel, etc., with each group feeding the next.
    I think, therefore.... I... ummmm........
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  • Just to bump this with an observation..... 100% wet on the mix knob and kill-dry are theorhetically the same thing... however there are implications for workflow.

    Most pedals I've used that offer a kill-dry switch do not restore your dry when the pedal is bypassed - so you plop it on a board, and when you bypass the pedal you'll be effectively muting your signal.

    Whereas if you've set the mix knob to full whack and you bypass, you can seamlessly transition between a huge wet pad reverb at 100% wet, and your dry guitar signal going into the amp.

    Personally, I am not a big fan of kill-dry buttons/switches. I never use them, because I never use pedals in the fx loop.
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  • Jonathanthomas83Jonathanthomas83 Frets: 3067
    edited July 14
    They're mostly (but not exclusively) useful for parallel mixing, which I did a lot of back then and still do (in the box) now. I've almost always got delay and reverb in parallel with each other and the dry signal :-)

    The problem with a using pedals with only a 100% wet knob and not a kill-dry function is that they often don't come with a volume knob, so are reliant on the mixer to have an independent volume for that loop, to be able to control the delay/reverb volume. And often, this isn't midi controllable so has to be set and forget. So kill dry on something like the Timeline is infinitely more useful than 100% wet on a Nova Delay, for example...in my particular use case.

    All moot for me now, thankfully I've gotten rid of the headache by using plugins.
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  • There are a couple of songs where I use 100% wet on a reverb, straight into the front of the amp, with a mild amount of dirt. Doing these post-rock pads type thing. Basically using the wetness of the verb to remove the attack of my pick. It works great!
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