Question on the ethics of pedal cloning

handsomerik

I was recently looking for some new pedal PCB projects to build as I haven't done any building since getting my Helix 3 years ago, and I was surprised to come across 2 projects that are based upon some circuits that are well loved around these parts. .

I won't link to the site here or by PM so don't ask.

I really like Adrian and i've had good chats with him in person and I appreciate his excellent business and how well he is doing in a crowded market, but I was wondering, Adrian how do you feel about these projects becoming available?

Do you feel like it's theft of your intellectual property?

If so, how do you defend that position given that you started out by building and selling lots of clones of other pedals, (a couple of which I bought from you myself before you were very kind in giving me some advice on how I could get into building myself).

I'm not trying to be controversial here. I'm genuinely interested in how you feel about it after putting in all the hard work and development of these circuits, but also given that you started out, as many builders do, by building clones yourself.

Adam_MD

If a company wants to clone it it's not hard to buy a peacekeeper and trace it.  It was going to happen at some point at least he's not putting the schems in the build docs.

I'm also pretty sure from some discussion on madbean that Thorpys aware and has been in touch with him already. 

Winny_Pooh

Kinda calling him out a bit no?

Just a guess but "I dont particularly like it but I can't control it" probably covers alot of it.

Remember that cloning classic effects in your bedroom is not hurting MXR, EHX, Dunlop, Ibanez etc. But cloning small builders's circuits (which come with R&D even if derivatives of a BM or fuzzface) is a bit more likely to. 

Personally, I don't mind building a Supreaux clone but I'd not be keen to do a Skreddy Lunar module. 

Then there's the grey area of Klones. You can't get one so what else can you do?

ThorpyFX

handsomerik said:

I was recently looking for some new pedal PCB projects to build as I haven't done any building since getting my Helix 3 years ago, and I was surprised to come across 2 projects that are listed as being 'comparable to' ThorpyFX's Peacekeeper and Fallout cloud pedals.

I won't link to the site here or by PM so don't ask.

I really like @ThorpyFX and i've had good chats with him in person and I appreciate his excellent business and how well he is doing in a crowded market, but I was wondering, Adrian how do you feel about these projects becoming available?

Do you feel like it's theft of your intellectual property?

If so, how do you defend that position given that you started out by building and selling lots of clones of other pedals, (a couple of which I bought from you myself before you were very kind in giving me some advice on how I could get into building myself).

I'm not trying to be controversial here. I'm genuinely interested in how you feel about it after putting in all the hard work and development of these circuits, but also given that you started out, as many builders do, by building clones yourself.

I am aware, and I have been in touch.... but  it’s a tricky subject and the resolution is mostly reasonable. 

So  before I went “pro” I learnt my craft building some clones, tweaking them and doing what I could to make them as good as possible.

i tried where possible to respect a companies intellectual property and when called out, I changed nomenclature to ensure I didn’t fall foul of owned trademarks etc.

now the issue with seeing our designs reproduced on the site in  this manner is both a positive and a negative. Positive because, hey they are deemed good enough to be reproduced. Negative because those designs cost me a lot of time and money to get right and  once cloned  others can profit from my work without the associated R&D burden.

but that doesn’t tell the whole story, if someone really wanted to rip me off they could easily buy a pedal reverse engineer it and sell it as something else. There are LOADS of examples of this in this industry. And that worries me more than anything else. 

What i really object to is people using our brand and pedal name to sell these fully built clones, I’ve seen examples of this on Facebook.

I’ve seen it happen to Hudson too with his broadcast pedal....

i support my family with the effort I put into ThorpyFx, it’s not just a business.... it meant I could leave a strong career and become self sufficient.

so how do I feel about it? I’ll just say this... where you can please support businesses that try and innovate.... it’ll lead to new designs that are cool. 

SouthpawMark

ThorpyFX said:

handsomerik said:

I was recently looking for some new pedal PCB projects to build as I haven't done any building since getting my Helix 3 years ago, and I was surprised to come across 2 projects that are listed as being 'comparable to' ThorpyFX's Peacekeeper and Fallout cloud pedals.

I won't link to the site here or by PM so don't ask.

I really like @ThorpyFX and i've had good chats with him in person and I appreciate his excellent business and how well he is doing in a crowded market, but I was wondering, Adrian how do you feel about these projects becoming available?

Do you feel like it's theft of your intellectual property?

If so, how do you defend that position given that you started out by building and selling lots of clones of other pedals, (a couple of which I bought from you myself before you were very kind in giving me some advice on how I could get into building myself).

I'm not trying to be controversial here. I'm genuinely interested in how you feel about it after putting in all the hard work and development of these circuits, but also given that you started out, as many builders do, by building clones yourself.

I am aware, and I have been in touch.... but  it’s a tricky subject and the resolution is mostly reasonable. 

So  before I went “pro” I learnt my craft building some clones, tweaking them and doing what I could to make them as good as possible.

i tried where possible to respect a companies intellectual property and when called out, I changed nomenclature to ensure I didn’t fall foul of owned trademarks etc.

now the issue with seeing our designs reproduced on the site in  this manner is both a positive and a negative. Positive because, hey they are deemed good enough to be reproduced. Negative because those designs cost me a lot of time and money to get right and  once cloned  others can profit from my work without the associated R&D burden.

but that doesn’t tell the whole story, if someone really wanted to rip me off they could easily buy a pedal reverse engineer it and sell it as something else. There are LOADS of examples of this in this industry. And that worries me more than anything else. 

What i really object to is people using our brand and pedal name to sell these fully built clones, I’ve seen examples of this on Facebook.

I’ve seen it happen to Hudson too with his broadcast pedal....

i support my family with the effort I put into ThorpyFx, it’s not just a business.... it meant I could leave a strong career and become self sufficient.

so how do I feel about it? I’ll just say this... where you can please support businesses that try and innovate.... it’ll lead to new designs that are cool. 

That’s a top response. I’d be bloody livid. 

handsomerik

I wasn’t calling him out about it. I was genuinely interested on his take on it knowing that he’s been on both sides of the fence. 

Thanks for your excellent response Adrian. 

My personal take is that if a layout/project is out there I will build it out of interest for personal use but I won’t build to order for others and wouldn’t want to take money from the designer in any way.

I agree that that it’s great to support small honest businesses where possible. At least your designs are genuinely innovative.

What annoys me is when companies change two small component values of a well loved circuit, stick it in a fancy shiny enclosure and then list it as something new with ‘3 years R&D’ behind it and sell it for £300!

Wishing you every blessing with your business Adrian. You’re a credit to the forum and the industry. I’m really liking the smaller form factor of the V2 pedals. 

 One more question: Do do you think you’ll ever get into any digital effects like reverbs and delays and is it easier to protect that intellectual property? (I know that Mooer copier the pog do blatently that it still had ehx’s Copyright notice in the code of their tender octaver!)

Adam_MD

Winny_Pooh said:

Personally, I don't mind building a Supreaux clone but I'd not be keen to do a Skreddy Lunar module. 

I don't have any moral issues building myself a clone of either of those or anyone elses pedal tbh mainly because I'm not selling them and taking apart a new circuit is the best way to learn about circuit design.  It's also how a lot of the current crop of smaller pedal companies got started as diyers e.g. Wampler, JHS, Thorpy etc 

I think most builders are fine with diyers in general its the guys who will build 20 peacekeepers and put them on facebook or ebay to purposefully undercut the original builder to fund their hobby that make it problematic.  Then you have the chinese pedal companies who will trace a pedal and flog thousands of them for £40 who are the big problem. 

ThorpyFX

Adam_MD said:

Winny_Pooh said:

Personally, I don't mind building a Supreaux clone but I'd not be keen to do a Skreddy Lunar module. 

I don't have any moral issues building myself a clone of either of those or anyone elses pedal tbh mainly because I'm not selling them and taking apart a new circuit is the best way to learn about circuit design.  It's also how a lot of the current crop of smaller pedal companies got started as diyers e.g. Wampler, JHS, Thorpy etc 

I think most builders are fine with diyers in general its the guys who will build 20 peacekeepers and put them on facebook or ebay to purposefully undercut the original builder to fund their hobby that make it problematic.  Then you have the chinese pedal companies who will trace a pedal and flog thousands of them for £40 who are the big problem. 

Bingo

Winny_Pooh

Adam_MD said:

Winny_Pooh said:

Personally, I don't mind building a Supreaux clone but I'd not be keen to do a Skreddy Lunar module. 

I think most builders are fine with diyers in general its the guys who will build 20 peacekeepers and put them on facebook or ebay to purposefully undercut the original builder to fund their hobby that make it problematic.  

I had no idea that this was happening. 

UnclePsychosis

Winny_Pooh said:

Adam_MD said:

Winny_Pooh said:

Personally, I don't mind building a Supreaux clone but I'd not be keen to do a Skreddy Lunar module. 

I think most builders are fine with diyers in general its the guys who will build 20 peacekeepers and put them on facebook or ebay to purposefully undercut the original builder to fund their hobby that make it problematic.  

I had no idea that this was happening. 

If you go on ebay and search for "guitar pedal clone" you'll find a lot. 

A lot of them are one-off things DIYers have built and are selling on, lots of them are clearly small "businesses" making lots of them. 

Huge grey area. Lots of people on this forum own cheap RAT clones, we all seem fairly OK with that. Most of us are probably less OK with someone making cheap Thorpy clones. 

Slimbert

I've bought "clones" from/made by more than one person in this thread and all were "better" than the originals they were based on. They'd all been tweeked and/or improved on in some way and were beautifully made with top drawer parts throughout. Those pedals, in that form, simply aren't available commercially.

Colin above is correct - cheap crappy clones are the real devil. I dipped my toe in to the world of cheap mini clone pedals and it was something I don't want to repeat any time soon. We all like a bargain and not everyone has the budget for the best of everything but, with a small number of exceptions, almost all the clones I've tried have come up short against the original in either build, parts, or sound quality.

I try and buy direct from my preferred pedal builders so they get the most financial benefit. I've never asked for discounts which, I guess, adds to me not being able to buy as many pedals as I'd like to, or as often as I'd like to, but as Adrian says...he's supporting a family, it supports more R&D for new gear, and shouldn't someone who supports the scene as much as he does deserve some reward for his efforts?

Teetonetal

Slightly different topic, but you mentioned the helix  in the OP. The modelling of known circuits also makes me uneasy.  Is digital cloning ok?

handsomerik

An interesting question. 

I went to the peach guitars evening with Dave Friedman and he said when asked about helix and fractal modelling his amps that he considers it basically theft. 

I’m my own opinion I don’t consider it that way. You are not cloning anything but are making a digital approximation based on what you hear.
I also think to some extent that they are different target markets so I really doubt it would affect his sales. It’s not like I was going to go out and buy a 3k Friedman rig but then decided against it when Helix added the model. If I wanted one I doubt the helix version would ‘placate’ me. (The Helix version of the BE100 amp is called the Placator!)

@Teetonetal If modelling makes you uneasy, how do you feel about amp in a box pedals like the Wampler Wrecktifier for example, or the Xotic supalead? Is that not the same thing?

Adam_MD

handsomerik said:

An interesting question. 

I went to the peach guitars evening with Dave Friedman and he said when asked about helix and fractal modelling his amps that he considers it basically theft. 

I’m my own opinion I don’t consider it that way. You are not cloning anything but are making a digital approximation based on what you hear. I also think to some extent that they are different target markets so I really doubt it would affect his sales. It’s not like I was going to go out and buy a 3k Friedman rig but then decided against it when Helix added the model. If I wanted one I doubt the helix version would ‘placate’ me. (The Helix version of the BE100 amp is called the Placator!)

It is an interesting point I've never considered digital modelling and cloning before.  I'll have to think about that.  I do think you're right about different target markets though.  

sweepy

Adam_MD said:

handsomerik said:

An interesting question. 

I went to the peach guitars evening with Dave Friedman and he said when asked about helix and fractal modelling his amps that he considers it basically theft. 

I’m my own opinion I don’t consider it that way. You are not cloning anything but are making a digital approximation based on what you hear. I also think to some extent that they are different target markets so I really doubt it would affect his sales. It’s not like I was going to go out and buy a 3k Friedman rig but then decided against it when Helix added the model. If I wanted one I doubt the helix version would ‘placate’ me. (The Helix version of the BE100 amp is called the Placator!)

It is an interesting point I've never considered digital modelling and cloning before.  I'll have to think about that.  I do think you're right about different target markets though.  

It's been a topic on the Fractal Forum for quite awhile 

Adam_MD

sweepy said:

Adam_MD said:

handsomerik said:

An interesting question. 

I went to the peach guitars evening with Dave Friedman and he said when asked about helix and fractal modelling his amps that he considers it basically theft. 

I’m my own opinion I don’t consider it that way. You are not cloning anything but are making a digital approximation based on what you hear. I also think to some extent that they are different target markets so I really doubt it would affect his sales. It’s not like I was going to go out and buy a 3k Friedman rig but then decided against it when Helix added the model. If I wanted one I doubt the helix version would ‘placate’ me. (The Helix version of the BE100 amp is called the Placator!)

It is an interesting point I've never considered digital modelling and cloning before.  I'll have to think about that.  I do think you're right about different target markets though.  

It's been a topic on the Fractal Forum for quite awhile 

Do you have to join the fractal forum to see those threads or can a lurker go and have a look? I've never been on the fractal forum or even seen an axefx in real life. 

sweepy

You can browse the forums but can't post iirc, haven't been since I sent back my AxeFx 3

fretmeister

handsomerik said:

An interesting question. 

I went to the peach guitars evening with Dave Friedman and he said when asked about helix and fractal modelling his amps that he considers it basically theft. 

I’m my own opinion I don’t consider it that way. You are not cloning anything but are making a digital approximation based on what you hear.
I also think to some extent that they are different target markets so I really doubt it would affect his sales. It’s not like I was going to go out and buy a 3k Friedman rig but then decided against it when Helix added the model. If I wanted one I doubt the helix version would ‘placate’ me. (The Helix version of the BE100 amp is called the Placator!)

@Teetonetal If modelling makes you uneasy, how do you feel about amp in a box pedals like the Wampler Wrecktifier for example, or the Xotic supalead? Is that not the same thing?

that's interesting - after all there isn't really an original amp in the world.
They are all basically pinched from the old Philips schematics that they gave away free to sell their components. Of course they've been massively added to but the amp market would be very different if Philips had protected their rights.

Did anyone ask Dave if he thought he was pinching from Marshall in the "Marsha" days?

There is no copyright in a circuit but there is in a schematic. But of course you can achieve the same electrical flow in many ways. Original has a 4ohm resister - ok, just run two 8 ohms in parallel. The circuit has now changed but the sound will be almost identical.

Sound cannot be copyright because there are so many ways of achieving it.


I wonder if Friedman would consider it the same way if the models were called "Modern USA versions of Old British Classic with an Infantile Name Amp No1" etc.

Of course the flip side of that is the massive amount of modeller users who can't see past the model name. The entire "I want AMP XX" crowd who think that in a modeller they can only get their sound is the amp actually has a specific Variant of an often updated amp.

Would modellers sell fewer numbers if the makers couldn't find a cheeky name to hint at the inspiration behind it?

Teetonetal

handsomerik said:

An interesting question. 

I went to the peach guitars evening with Dave Friedman and he said when asked about helix and fractal modelling his amps that he considers it basically theft. 

I’m my own opinion I don’t consider it that way. You are not cloning anything but are making a digital approximation based on what you hear.
I also think to some extent that they are different target markets so I really doubt it would affect his sales. It’s not like I was going to go out and buy a 3k Friedman rig but then decided against it when Helix added the model. If I wanted one I doubt the helix version would ‘placate’ me. (The Helix version of the BE100 amp is called the Placator!)

@Teetonetal If modelling makes you uneasy, how do you feel about amp in a box pedals like the Wampler Wrecktifier for example, or the Xotic supalead? Is that not the same thing?

@handsomerik ;To be honest I haven't really considered it.

In terms of helix, they have been quite open that the modelling is a digital recreation of the exact circuit.

They then also market based on we have this modelled this pedal or amp and use other's names to make the marketing easy.

I do agree they are targeting different markets, but one clearly uses the others work to enhance desirability of the product.

fretmeister

Maybe modellers inspire people to go and buy the real version of their favourite amp?

Jez6345789

It must be annoying for Thorpy and others and on some level if not legally wrong it’s certainly morally wrong. I also imagine if you goes balls deep legal on some back room ebayer selling clones you get nothing but grief from the builder community so a bit of a viscous circle.

All that said it’s sort of become the nature of the beast and the market in general.

Not that I know anything about the market in particular but think I would try to integrate some digital aspects into my designs to throw all but the most ardent coders off the sent of what is actually going on that slows down the bedroom copy the board layout and parts guys. Probably wrong about that but less people can code a DSP any old monkey can copy or get copied a board design