New Wilkinson Locking Saddles

musteatbrain

A while back Pete Thorn posted this video showing 
A new Wilkinson Gotoh bridge with locking saddles.
https://youtu.be/E1GwzNJCCAM


You can buy them direct from wilkinson on reverb

I don’t need a full new trem on my Suhr, but I did spot that they now also sell the locking saddles separately.

they are quite steep though

https://reverb.com/item/24879182-wilkinson-wls130-locking-steel-saddles

What do you think about these?
Has anyone tried these yet?

Winny_Pooh

Seems a great idea, however, some issues:
-Cost, absurd
- needs chrome rather than black screws to look right on a strat.
- WL logo is ugly as sin

sweepy

A “cure” for a problem that doesn’t exist, String Butler anyone ?

Philly_Q

I wonder if they are the actual ones used on the Suhr?  They look a bit shinier and have that ugly logo.  I would say they look like a cheap version, except they're not cheap.

musteatbrain

I’m skeptical, but they are on some rather expensive  Suhrs which gives me some promise
as philly Q mentions, these look a bit shinier and it says they are made in Korea.
If they were £40 I’d give them a gamble but at 70 I think I will leave it.
Unless someone with more money than
me takes a punt and tells me they are exceptional

DrBob

I’d be interested to know what the string spacing on these is 

Philly_Q

I think the usual spacing on Gotoh 510 bridges is 54mm (although they do also make a 52.5mm version), so I guess these are the same.

normula1

For me the whole point of a non-locking (i.e not a Floyd) is that you don't need allen keys etc. to change strings this seems to me to be a backward step.

jaymenon

It does address a very relevant problem, in that a major point of friction is where the string exits the top of the baseplate and makes a 45º angle towards the saddle. 

That always remains as a memory point on the string - and makes for tuning instability.
Bend a note - it returns very slightly flat
Depress the tremolo arm - back in tune again.

The Suhr Wilkinson saddles are fundamentally the same as a Non Fine Tuner Floyd Rose tremolo (as on the Guthrie Charvel).

There is however, an simple and elegant solution in the Gotoh 510 tremolo with the FST block (oddly only available in zinc, though I had there trem blocks made in cold rolled steel)

The baseplate has elongated slots rather than small holes

The trem block also has elongated slots

So the string touches nothing en route to the saddle

Now this tremolo really stays in tune - and reignited a love I had very much lost for the Stratocaster.

Detailed review here:
http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/141966/

DrBob

jaymenon said:

It does address a very relevant problem, in that a major point of friction is where the string exits the top of the baseplate and makes a 45º angle towards the saddle. 

That always remains as a memory point on the string - and makes for tuning instability.
Bend a note - it returns very slightly flat
Depress the tremolo arm - back in tune again.

The Suhr Wilkinson saddles are fundamentally the same as a Non Fine Tuner Floyd Rose tremolo (as on the Guthrie Charvel).

There is however, an simple and elegant solution in the Gotoh 510 tremolo with the FST block (oddly only available in zinc, though I had there trem blocks made in cold rolled steel)

The baseplate has elongated slots rather than small holes

The trem block also has elongated slots

So the string touches nothing en route to the saddle

Now this tremolo really stays in tune - and reignited a love I had very much lost for the Stratocaster.

Detailed review here:
http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/141966/

Which is interesting as I thought these saddles were designed as a retrofit for the Gotoh 510

sweepy

Strat trems not returning to pitch ? erm nope, never had an issue at all, that’s just a poorly setup guitar 

jaymenon

sweepy said:

Strat trems not returning to pitch ? erm nope, never had an issue at all, that’s just a poorly setup guitar 

I have to disagree and say that you're wrong there - that's why the Floyd Rose tremolo was invented.

That same strat that I recorded as drifting out of tune:
Keeping the same neck - but using a different body with a non-Fine Tuner Floyd Rose tremolo, the tuning instability was practically eliminated. So the problem was at the bridge.

The strat tremolo has some problems integral to the design, none of which are eliminated by even the best set-up (and the guitar tech I use is absolutely brilliant). 

A strat has multiple sites of friction where the strings have a tendency to 'hang'.  

Using lubricants can reduce (quite a lot) the friction at these points - but no set up will eliminate them.

1. The top of the base plate
2. The saddle
3. The nut
4. The string trees
5. The tendency of the winds around the tuner posts to come loose wen depressing the tremolo arm and then re-tightening in a different manner when the arm is released. Locking tuners eliminate this.
6. You can also include the ball ends of the strings loosening and going back differently into the string recesses in the tremolo block - I find that the bullet end fender strings are better at this (but its a real pain to get spare singles if you break one)

A double locking tremolo
Eliminates all of these - no points of friction.

A Non Fine Tuner Floyd Rose tremolo with locking tuners:
Strings are locked at both ends with only one point of friction at the nut

The Gotoh 510 with FST block
Two points of potential friction (nut and saddles).
And of course the string recesses in the tremolo block.

sweepy

We shall have to agree to disagree on this one, my 3 Strats stay in tune perfectly and I use the trem a lot. Setting up a Strat is more of a case of the sum of its parts than one magic bullet . Locking saddles aren't new, Schaller made some aftermarket ones back in the 80,s which were an ergonomic nightmare unfortunately

normula1

It also depends on how well ground the underside of the bridge plate is. My mid 80s Squier has non locking tuners and is very stable on the other hand, my Japanese '62 is useless as the plate was quite shoddily done.... must get round to replacing it

Wonky

Personally never used a strat trem that stays in tune for me.  Tried loads of set up tips ect.  I use floyds a lot, as a nothing stays in tune like a well set up floyd.  Maybe that's about to change though with these saddles.  Who knows

clarkydaz

jaymenon said:

 

The Gotoh 510 with FST block
Two points of potential friction (nut and saddles).
And of course the string recesses in the tremolo block.

 

was interested in this fst block, it seems you have to buy the whole unit though. would deep drilling a standard steel block do much of the same thing?

jaymenon

clarkydaz said:

jaymenon said:

 

The Gotoh 510 with FST block
Two points of potential friction (nut and saddles).
And of course the string recesses in the tremolo block.

 

was interested in this fst block, it seems you have to buy the whole unit though. would deep drilling a standard steel block do much of the same thing?

Not really clarkydaz...

1. The block needs to be deep drilled
2. You require slits at the top pf the block so the strings don't touch the block
3. You require slits in the baseplate - so the strings don't touch the baseplate

So the ball (arguably bullet) end of the string touches the top of the string recess.
The string touches no structure until it encounters the saddle.

Does that make sense...?

Have a read here:
http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/141966/

Kind regards
Jay

clarkydaz

jaymenon said:

clarkydaz said:

jaymenon said:

 

The Gotoh 510 with FST block
Two points of potential friction (nut and saddles).
And of course the string recesses in the tremolo block.

 

was interested in this fst block, it seems you have to buy the whole unit though. would deep drilling a standard steel block do much of the same thing?

Not really clarkydaz...

1. The block needs to be deep drilled
2. You require slits at the top pf the block so the strings don't touch the block
3. You require slits in the baseplate - so the strings don't touch the baseplate

So the ball (arguably bullet) end of the string touches the top of the string recess.
The string touches no structure until it encounters the saddle.

Does that make sense...?

Have a read here:
http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/141966/

Kind regards
Jay

I see, I was going off the shorter dead string length, which likely helps but the gotoh setup goes further. I have a Wudtone, would you say this is an improvement (think I saw you mention this in another thread), also could you use bent steel saddles with the gotoh plate?

musteatbrain

I think there’s something in what @jaymenon is saying.

I have swapped out the heavy steel shallow drilled block for the deep drilled FST block.

There’s two noticeable changes:

1) the trem held tuning pretty well in the first place. It has now improved even more. Not as good as a Floyd, but certainly better than other well set up non-locking trems

2) the deeper drilling on the block has the effect of reducing the tension of the strings needed when bending them. I read some well debated stuff about the block in the Eric Johnson strat a while back and was open minded about it. Now I’m certain the depth of the drilling in a trem block influences this

I started with 10s on my Suhr and it was a bit stiffer than my strat with 10s on so I balanced it out with 9.5s
Now 9.5s feel like 9s so I’ll be going up a gauge next time I swap

this has drifted off topic, but ultimately the thread was about tweaking small parts to improve tuning performance. I’m happy with the results

JMP220478

there'll be a cheap Korean copy of the non cheap Korean original available soon ... :-) 

made in the same factory - after hours when the Wilkinson QC team go home ... 

WilkinsonDirect

Hey all, just thought I'd jump in here and hopefully answer a few questions directly for you all from us here at Wilkinson HQ about the new WLS130 replacement saddles and the WVS1302P full assembly.  
I'll try and cover all of the above comments in one reply ....

We're sorry to hear you think the cost is absurd - may I ask compared to what? 

The black hold down screws are special alloy steel, heat treated and finished in black oxide to resist corrosion - plating on the screws could wear away when clamping so this is the absolute best finish for the longevity of our product and function of this critical part of the saddles assembly.

We're sorry to hear you think the logo is Ugly.  The full assembly doesn't have the laser etched part number on it, perhaps this would be a better choice for you folks not keen on the small head stock and part number.

The full assembly is a direct retro fit for American Standard Spacing and the saddles will retro fit all common spacing from 10.5mm to 11.3mm - the very nature of this unique patented design is that clamping the string directly at the intonation point as the string leaves the saddle means there is no side to side movement even on the wider of spacing and eliminates the need for channels or grooves in the base plate for them to locate in to. The saddles are provided with height screws that are "set cup point grub screws" and we've had amazing reviews and feed back from people buying the saddles that on a Gotoh 510 plate, the outer saddles locate just fine, there's been no issues but again equally on other base plates as there is no need for grooves because of the design. Win Win.  

The saddles and full assembly on the Suhr guitars are the same as the items you see from us on Reverb and our soon to launch website, www.WilkinsonDirect.com, I can assure you of this as they are exclusively available from my company KWE Ltd and Suhr buy them directly from us.

I'm also sorry and saddened to hear you think they look cheap, considering the tool to make them was an investment of £25,000 for the MIM flow metal process which allows the saddles to be made of a heat treatable steel which would be impossible to machine and if machined would cost ten times as much  - again all to avoid wear and provide longevity - plating them would eventually wear off and expose the saddle to wear.  The hard satin finish we provide is again for the functionality of the saddle.  Cheap and shiny won't work or last.

We protect all our designs including this one with worldwide patents, copyrights and trade marks. We work tirelessly to protect and invest in them.  Our trustworthy manufacturing partners work with us and it does seem very uncomplimentary to comment about cheap copies being made on the graveyard shift -  rest assured this would never be allowed happen. 

As far as a backward step, keeping people in tune is backwards??  This bridge has a vintage feel, look, style, function but locks - not so backwards I feel.  All we ask you to do is one simple locking mechanism on the saddle. We do not ask you to clamp at the nut, cut off a ball end, we do not ask you to put up with fine tuners...... even though we don't ask you to do all these things we do manage to keep you in tune as good as anything else on the market.  We think this is a small price to pay to stay in tune.

Simply, if an artist of the caliber of Pete Thorn, who has used this on his guitar for over a year, well then we feel this is testament enough that a top class guitarist who plays around the world with some of the most prominent artists see's the benefits of this new design then enough said.

I hope this has cleared some questions you all may have had.

This is a one time comment/post - a rare occurrence for Wilkinson HQ to provide such insight into our productions/products. After 35 years of being a world leader in guitar hardware, we don't need to defend ourselves but have done so on this occasion because of the incredibly uniformed prejudiced opinions.
The reviews for this product worldwide have be phenomenal, we can't keep enough in stock for those willing to try something new and exciting and I am saddened that a UK based forum has to be the one to have such negativity for a product created and designed by a fellow Englishman.

All our best,

Kate, Trev and all the team at Wilkinson