Speakers vs cabinets

ICBM

I’ve just spent a very useful evening with the guitarist from my band, comparing speakers and cabinets... five different speakers and three cabs. It was time-consuming but very worthwhile, and produced some interesting results.

The speakers were all Celestions - V30, G12M-25 Greenback, G12H-30 Heritage, Creamback G12M-65 and Creamback G12H-75. The cabs were an Orange 1x12”, a vintage Marshall 2045 2x12” and a Marshall 2061 2x12”. (All closed-back.)

We tried the three high-power speakers in both the Orange and 2061 cabs, and the pairs of high and low power speakers in the 2x12”s. In the 2061 cab we tried both speakers individually and combined. We didn’t mix the high and low power speakers. (No point.)

Result: the speaker is more important than the cab, but only just. I would say about 60/40 in favour of the speaker - the same speakers in different cabs sounded radically different, but slightly less so than different speakers in the same cab.

There was an interesting difference between the 2045 and 2061 cabs - in the 2045, the speakers sounded more ‘blended’, and in the 2061 more ‘separated’.

The best of the lot was the Heritage H30 and the Greenback in the 2045 - perfectly blended and balanced - putting them in the 2061 sounded slightly too thumpy and too tight at the same time... odd! The Creamback G12M-65 sounded the best by itself in the Orange 1x12”. The really strange result was that the V30 and H75 pair sounded better in the 2061 with the V30 at the top - more ‘together’ - with the V30 at the bottom it was more obviously two different speakers. I expected the opposite...

Conclusion: don’t overlook the cab. It’s not just a box for the speakers.

Fuengi

Interesting! I can't get my head around why the cab makes such a difference. 

Recently when @munckee came over to mine we played through his Blues Jr and 1974 Champ, my Yerasov and Mesa Maverick. The Champ was a real surprise, having the smallest speaker it filled the room much more than either the Blues Jr or the Yerasov. We could only put this down to the cabinet. 

I can only guess that the cabinet is in some true sense an extension of the speaker. 

Jalfrezi

I agree, it's quite time consuming.  I did this a few years back, also tried the detuned cab thing, by leaving on speaker out of a closed back 2x12.  I liked the detuned cab thing a lot.  I have an old Marshall 4x12 that I am supposed to be fixing up, and when done that will have just two speakers, the other holes being left empty.

musteatbrain

I have now educated myself.
2061 has diagonal speakers in a 2 x 12 and 2045 has side by side in a 2x12
what sounded best in the 2061?
I have an MJW diagonal 2x12 with old 75hz greenbacks in. 

dindude

Yup, always astounds me how much the sound can be changed with speaker and cab. Although I do it digitally these days with the Universal Audio OX.

ICBM

musteatbrain said:

what sounded best in the 2061?

The two Creambacks, with the M65 at the top.

It’s a much deeper cab than the 2045 and seemed to work better with the tighter-sounding speakers.

musteatbrain

Hmmm now I want to spend loads of money just to see.

sgosden

next test - can you achieve the same recorded sound by playing with mics ? same speakers in the different 212s

ecc83

Aw SHUCKS IC! You did not setup  a mic to record the proceedings!

I am not at all surprised that the cab was a big influence. Even in the hi fi/monitor world it is VERY hard to make an enclosure that does not add some colouration to the sound.  Then the hi fi boys have the benefit of extensive bracing, much thicker walls (proportionately. A 2x 12 gitcab built along the lines of a good monitor would be almost impossible to shift!) serious damping material is applied to walls and the whole box usually stuffed with sound absorbent but STILL the wood "speaks" to some degree sometimes.

Back in the day, speakers were made from brick with sand loaded baffles!

Dave. (If you do it again let me know and I can give you a borrow of an interface and couple of cap mics!)

ICBM

ecc83 said:

Aw SHUCKS IC! You did not setup  a mic to record the proceedings!

(If you do it again let me know and I can give you a borrow of an interface and couple of cap mics!)

It took long enough just to swap the damn things!



I'd actually be very doubtful whether a mic would capture the most surprising difference, that of how well the speakers seem to 'blend' when you stand in front of the cab - but it makes a big difference when you're listening to the cab in a room. At one extreme, the Greenback and H30 in the horizontal cab sound 'like one speaker', with the sound appearing to come from the middle of the cab, despite the difference in tone and sensitivity when heard separately. At the other extreme, the V30 and H75 in the diagonal cab with the V30 at the bottom, the sounds appeared distinctly separated and obviously coming from the opposite corners of the cab. And yes, they were in phase.

I've noticed this before when mixing speakers - I always prefer combinations which appear to blend rather than remain separated - but I hadn't realised how dependent on the cab it is as well. This may explain the popularity of speaker combinations I don't like - eg the V30/Greenback and V30/H30 - if I just haven't heard them in the right cab...

ecc83

"It took long enough just to swap the damn things!"

Well I get that but. A co-I pair (or just one!) set about your place in the room, set the DAW to record and forget it (you could WeTransfer the lot to me for editing!)

WRGT (and you know I mean that) almost always when guitar/amp/speaker/pedal shootouts are done and not recorded the claim that "it probably would not come out" is made. Let US be the judge?

And I know I am a pedantic old bugger but, and this goes for everyone, a sound level meter would be nice so that you are comparing roughly the same levels? You can get a C weighted one for 20 quid and FREE for your phone.  

Dave.

WiresDreamDisasters

I never bought the whole notion that the cab wasn't important. This was based on playing gigs where bands would graciously loan us their home-built cabs... and the sounds were less than pleasing.

ICBM

ecc83 said:

WRGT (and you know I mean that) almost always when guitar/amp/speaker/pedal shootouts are done and not recorded the claim that "it probably would not come out" is made. Let US be the judge?

True enough, but you really won't capture that sort of spatial information with any normal way of mic'ing a guitar cab. Obviously that means it doesn't matter much if the goal is a recorded or live-through-PA sound, but that's not how most people listen to their cabinets.

ecc83 said:

And I know I am a pedantic old bugger but, and this goes for everyone, a sound level meter would be nice so that you are comparing roughly the same levels?

The amp settings were not changed during the testing, so that would have been consistent.

WiresDreamDisasters said:

I never bought the whole notion that the cab wasn't important. This was based on playing gigs where bands would graciously loan us their home-built cabs... and the sounds were less than pleasing.

Nor me, but I was still surprised how much difference the cab made, even with exactly the same speakers being swapped from one to the other. Before this I would have said something like 80/20 in favour of the speaker, but now I think it's more 60/40. All the cabs were decent quality all-ply ones too.

Modulus_Amps

Do you like the H75 by itself

ICBM said:

I've noticed this before when mixing speakers - I always prefer combinations which appear to blend rather than remain separated - but I hadn't realised how dependent on the cab it is as well. This may explain the popularity of speaker combinations I don't like - eg the V30/Greenback and V30/H30 - if I just haven't heard them in the right cab...

This (in bold)

I have a Vintage 30 and G12H-75 in a cab here, it is not my favourite cab but it doesn't sound like two completely separate sound sources. I used to have a G12M 65 and the G12H-75 in the same cab, which I didnt really like.

My favourite cab it is still my diagonal 2 x 12 with g12h heritage on the top and a vintage 30 on the bottom

Playing around with speaker IR's has been very interesting and certainly worthwhile for anybody wanting to get an idea as to what speaker sound like without buy loads to try.

ICBM

Modulus_Amps said:

My favourite cab it is still my diagonal 2 x 12 with g12h heritage on the top and a vintage 30 on the bottom

It is strange... that really can't be far from the 2061 with a V30 in the bottom and the H75 in the top, and that just didn't sound right at all. Is it an angled cab like the Marshall? I wonder if reflections off the back panel have anything to do with it...

MichaelAT

Now introduce some open back cabs to your test setup, and find out even more differences... To me, open vs closed back cab sound diff was more dramatic than a speaker swap. 

I also did some intensive speaker & cab comparisons, but I gave up on trying to record it. With a ‚room mic‘ I always got wimpy sound, probably to some extent due to the bad room acoustics plus I don‘t have a proper mic for it. And for the close micing, I guess the cab sound won‘t be captured much. Also, mic placement is so sensitive. A cm off, or slightly different angle means different sound characteristics.

ecc83

" I wonder if reflections off the back panel have anything to do with it..."

Very possibly IC. Non-parallel walls greatly reduce the build up of standing waves that cause colouration heard through the cone. The same principle applies in studio control room to reduce room modes.

You know mate? You might have hit upon something that could prove very important to the design of guitar cabs? I have been reading about amps and cabs now for many years and there has never seemed to be any rhyme or reason why one amp is so much preferred over another when they seem very similar. In fact, just an inch difference in a cab dimension could change the sound, especially front to back. At say 10" there could be a strong peak at 660Hz but for 9" the peak could shift to 733Hz. One of those peaks could make a guitar sound great or nasty.

Now we need someone with a shedload of time and cash and an anechoic chamber to firm up some numbers!  

Dave.

lukedlb

I have many a 4x12, a 2x12, and a 1x12. All incredible. 
However, I am astonished by the 3D  sound dispersion of my Marshall Artiste combo: 2x12 open back, upper grill, and coasters. The bass is huge at low volume. The highs are super clear too and remain clear even with the volume down on my strat. 
I wonder if the cab elevation on the coasters contributes. 
And it’s sheer weight. 

ESBlonde

ecc83 said:

" I wonder if reflections off the back panel have anything to do with it..."

Very possibly IC. Non-parallel walls greatly reduce the build up of standing waves that cause colouration heard through the cone. The same principle applies in studio control room to reduce room modes.

You know mate? You might have hit upon something that could prove very important to the design of guitar cabs? I have been reading about amps and cabs now for many years and there has never seemed to be any rhyme or reason why one amp is so much preferred over another when they seem very similar. In fact, just an inch difference in a cab dimension could change the sound, especially front to back. At say 10" there could be a strong peak at 660Hz but for 9" the peak could shift to 733Hz. One of those peaks could make a guitar sound great or nasty.

Now we need someone with a shedload of time and cash and an anechoic chamber to firm up some numbers!  

Dave.

A couple of aussies got there a long time ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiele/Small_parameters

There are lots of 'cabinet design' books available, but since it mostly controls the lower frequencies it largely avoids a normal guitars tone. I'm surprised more of these 7 string and baratone players haven't cottened on to the benefits yet.

These days a 'puter' does it all so much better. You can analyse it with something like this

https://www.rationalacoustics.com/smaart/smaart-v8/

Then program a DSP to tweek the output to suit. (check pocket depth first).

This is in effect what the digital 'amps' are doing anyway as a shaping tool.

But I'm old school and like my classic valve amd and cab. PA on the other hand...

PolarityMan

ICBM said:

ecc83 said:

Aw SHUCKS IC! You did not setup  a mic to record the proceedings!

(If you do it again let me know and I can give you a borrow of an interface and couple of cap mics!)

It took long enough just to swap the damn things!



I'd actually be very doubtful whether a mic would capture the most surprising difference, that of how well the speakers seem to 'blend' when you stand in front of the cab

It's weird but my first gut reaction to that was..."well then whats the point". I feel like if you cant capture it there's almost no point having the difference...I wonder if we'll see more movement that way as more people move to IEMs..or if we'll jsut see playing through speakers at all start to fade out.

ICBM

PolarityMan said:

It's weird but my first gut reaction to that was..."well then whats the point". I feel like if you cant capture it there's almost no point having the difference...I wonder if we'll see more movement that way as more people move to IEMs..or if we'll jsut see playing through speakers at all start to fade out.

I understand what you're saying, but it's because it makes a big difference to how you perceive the sound of the cab when you're listening to it.

Just like it's hard to tell the difference between the recorded sounds of any classic guitars when played clean in a 'neutral' style... http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/154250/gringos-clean-test-can-you-pass/p1

So what's the point in having so many different ones? Because it makes a huge difference to the player.