Compression bad for cutting through mix?

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I have been guilty of using too much gain in the past and lately i have fallen into trap of cranking the master volume with an attenuator which to be honest sounds weak and in my band gets completely lost in the mix. So I'm guessing too much compression is bad for band purposes. What is the best technique for getting a powerful sound from the amp? is it low to medium gain and master just before clipping point?, is it just a bit of power valve clipping but not too much? for example i have a marshall bluesbreaker that i have to use an attenuator with. Sounds great on my own but with the volume at 10 and using an attenuator it doesn't cut through. I also have a jmp 50w 2104 which clips at 5 on volume....it sounds fuller louder i get after 5 and great on my own but not sure this would be great for band purposes as it gets more compressed...whats the thoughts on this?
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Comments

  • revsorgrevsorg Frets: 874
    I am sure other people will have a lot more practical advice to give on this, but my question is why do you want to cut through the mix more?  The way I would do it is to focus your sound in particular frequency ranges.  The mixing desk should do this for you.  A tubescreamer might help.  Reverb would muddy things up.  A wahwah pedal would be a great way of cutting straight through but you might not want to overdo it.  I am currently thinking variety is the spice if life, but who knows what I'll be thinking next week.
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  • billandobillando Frets: 26

    usually we are not miced up. Small to medium pubs/clubs. i don't use pedals only a small bit of delay on some solos. i guess I'm just looking to see how others setup their gain/volume etc so to have a powerful sound in a band situation. You hear some say to get the amp cranked and take it down with an attenuator to gig level...for me this just sounds like mush.

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  • robinbowesrobinbowes Frets: 3021
    As @revsorg says, frequency is the key.

    Experiment with boosting specific frequencies to find the ones that make you more audible.

    Hint: it will most likely be mids - maybe around 4khz, but possibly lower. Also, cut your lows.

    R. 
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  • Winny_PoohWinny_Pooh Frets: 7732
    Are you trying to get a "big" sound with too much gain and bass? Big is about context, try cutting lows and less gain. 
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  • JalapenoJalapeno Frets: 6378
    edited June 2019
    As @revsorg says, frequency is the key.

    Experiment with boosting specific frequencies to find the ones that make you more audible.

    Hint: it will most likely be mids - maybe around 4khz, but possibly lower. Also, cut your lows.

    R. 
    This. WIS'd.

    Do avoid an out and out volume arms-race though.

    Especially if a 2nd guitar or keyboards in the band - start arranging your parts and playing different chord inversions in different registers.  2 loud guitars, same 6 string barre chords, both playing loudly with sound like mush, worse if distorted, worse still if slight or deliberate timing mismatches.

    Noisy/busy drummer doesn't help either with congestion in the mids
    Imagine something sharp and witty here ......

    Feedback
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590
    Context, context, context to misquote estate agents. There’s not one answer to the question. Things I’d try are:
    1. Less gain. Gain makes playing easy, but drowns your dynamics.
    2. Less bass. That’s what the bass player’s for. How much you cut depends on whether he is a John McVie or a Mark King, and what the slope is on your amp’s tone control. Being digital I fade from 250Hz, and cut below 125Hz.
    3. More mids. You’ll have to find what frequency range works for you. That will depend on what other instruments your band has, and what style of music you play.
    4. Ask the others to back off for your solo. You (hopefully) don’t stamp all over their parts, so they shouldn’t stamp over yours. 

    There’s a good example from last night about finding your hole in the frequency range. @hywelg and I we’re playing with several others in a rehearsal room. Hywel’s solo tone was superb. Big, fat, warm, ... all those words. I found space at the top end of the spectrum, and spent a lot of the evening dancing with the snare and high hat. All evening I just used my rhythm settings, which have lower gain and compression. If I’d used my solo settings then Hywel and I would have been competing for the same space. That way lies volume wars, which he would have won because his amp was bigger.


    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 7273
    Roland said:
     That way lies volume wars, which he would have won because his amp was bigger.


    So the take away is......have the biggest amp right?
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  • steven70steven70 Frets: 1262
    edited June 2019
    Couple of thoughts:

    I wonder if the problem is with the amp on 10, you have nowhere to go when you need a lift- if everything is already maxed out.
    Also, attenuators can get mushy in my (limited) experience, maybe a bit less attenuation,a bit less vol and a bit of a pedal to help get in the zone rather than everything all the way up.

    Cutting through is all relative. So it depends on what else is in the lineup. For example, I have had real trouble being heard above some snyth players, just because we were occupying the same frequencies...so arrangement helps. 

    Also, probably state the obvious but if you're not mic'd up and playing through that amp, it's gonna depend where you are standing- might be that you're cutting through just fine for the folks leaning up against the bar, but just not on stage. Personally I imagine your bluesbreaker cranked probably sounds fantastic

     
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  • lukedlblukedlb Frets: 488
    Yep, cut bass, boost mids a touch, and sprinkle some highs if needed. Frequency definition. As for compression, I use it to bring all the strings into the foreground, unlike what you were stating where the signal gets the top and bottom cut off and you end up with mush. 
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  • maltingsaudiomaltingsaudio Frets: 3098
    Compression isn’t the issue but space is, too many people think a compressor is the answer to all live sound situations it isn’t . In this instance it is down to a case of bad band communications and I expect a case of no one having the balls to call the shots. Spend time in rehearsals on adjusting each players individual tones to get the desired results, not just expect to adjust your tone to fit the space. Be brave and ask the others to compromise “their sound” to let the whole sparkle
    www.maltingsaudio.co.uk
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  • billandobillando Frets: 26

    Sorry, i have been away for a bit. I actually have a lot of different wattage amps...i guess i have been lazy cos whenever i hear a song back and don't really like it instead of working at the settings i just use a different amp next time. I have a jcm 900 100w, marshall jmp 2104 50w combo, marshall bluesbreaker 30w (no master volume so have to use attenuator) and vox ac15 with alnico blue speaker. They all have their good and bad points for the size of gigs i play unmiced. I'm just looking for a nice loud crunchy sound without too much gain.

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  • billandobillando Frets: 26
    i used the vox ac15 at band practice last night but it just didn't cut through enough. Took the jmp combo too and it blew a valve.....i have a gig next week so i will just try and dial in a good tone with the jcm 900. I am actually always going back to the jcm 900 as my band is an oasis cover group in the uk and that was their main gigging amps back in the day....just trying to figure out what settings are best.
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 7273
    A compressor reduces the dynamic range of a signal so it can help cut through if you are playing material where to note tail is a significant portion of what you want to hear. It's not going to help and may even hinder transients though.
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