Putting instruments through the FOH masks the vocals

vonLayzonfon

Or does it?

This argument gets trotted out from time to time and it's currently pertinent to one of my bands.

Here's the short version: If you mic up guitars, etc. and feed them through the PA they will detract from the vocals.  Counter argument: does it matter (to the audience) whether the instrument noise is coming from PA or backline, because the frequency mix is still the same? Assuming you balance it properly.

First some background.  We are (were - currently recruiting) a five piece: Vocals, 2 Guitars, Bass and Drums, with a couple of us also covering BV.  Until recently we had the worst possible combination of extremely loud drummer and less than powerful vocalist.  Feedback was often an issue.  But perhaps I should give some gear details.  I'll not go through all the various iterations of gear we've been through, just what we've been setting up most recently.

Vocalist: Wireless mic of some sort + wireless in-ears

Lead guitar: Marshall 4x12 half stack (+ GT1000) + wedge monitor [ + DI to desk ]

Rhythm guitar: Vox ToneLab SE straight to the desk + wired in-ears (BV)

Bass: Fender 2x10 full stack + wedge monitor (BV) [ + DI to desk ]

Drums: Really loud kit w/kick mic + wired in-ears (sometimes)

Desk: X-Air 18 (6 mono monitor mixes possible)

FOH: RCF 400W tops + Alto bins

I should say we're just talking about pub gigs here. Usually crammed into some unsuitable corner.

So. My aim has always been to try and keep the on-stage volume to a manageable level, balance the FOH and try and give everyone what they want in their monitors.  I personally haven't used backline for years and frankly, the lack of space we have in some venues, it's a blessing not to have to accommodate that extra gear.  I have tried to convince the instrumentalists that they only really need to be loud enough to be able to hear themselves comfortably, but the lead guitarist liked to have his trousers flapping and the bassist, who generally stands right next to the snare, with ear plugs in, also isn't afraid of cranking his rig.  So in the end at most performances those who are using wedge monitors are not getting the mix they want because they can't be turned up loud enough before feedback starts.  The audience are invariably asking for the vocals to be turned up - so I try and turn everything else down but I'm not really in control of the drums, lead guitar or bass, and cranking the vx invariably exacerbates feedback issues.  Plus, of course, a vocalist with a wireless mic likes to go on excursions in front of the PA and expects to be able to do that without subjecting the audience to sonic crucifixion.  It would be nice to get everyone on in-ears but wireless is too expensive for most (and comes with a whole crapload of extra power requirements) and some previous members were resistant.

Anyway, the line-up is changing so we'll see what the future brings, but the bassist and I were chatting last night and he once again brought up the fact that he often can't hear my guitar on stage and would it be better if I started using a backline amp.  Along with this came the old chestnut that putting anything other than vocals through the PA will detract from them.  So, while suggestions for a feedback free, utopian stage setup are welcome, my main question is whether people feel there is any weight to this argument, or whether it would be just as difficult balancing the vocals with a loud back line.

pintspiller

Shouldn't detract as long as th balance is right. If amps are miced up, it will alter mix if guitarists turn up on stage a few songs into the set. Balance might be set nice with guitars on clean but OD may add a few DB when activated.

digitalscream

What you're describing definitely sounds like the fundamental problem that everyone has when running a hybrid setup - you're using monitors for some things, backline for others and IEMs for yet another.

However, as to the specific problem...it sounds like you're struggling for headroom in the monitors. Of course, that means either getting bigger monitors, or more monitors exclusively for your guitar. Neither is an ideal solution, but I'm not sure you'll find one without at least some of the band changing their approach (ie less volume in the lead guitar and bass, and the drummer easing off the skins a bit...or you going back to a full backline and just using your IEMs as earplugs).

ESBlonde

Go back a little to basics or fundamentals.

The big boys call it sound reinforcement. By that they take what exists and give it a boost if required to carry it throughout the auditorium. (Beware of scale), a sophisticated Sound reinforcement system cannot take away something! This is why lower on stage sound is a blessing for the poor FOH sound engineer.

Also when using wedges/monitors, only feed in the essential information a performer needs to keep pitch and time. Full mixes, earth shattering kick drums, and more guitar are usually wrong! Any wedge or monitor speakers add MUD and volume to the FOH mix and make it harder to control.

If you have a loud drummer in the Naggs head, there is typically no need to mic up the kit, possible exception of the kick if the drummer is a bit weak. Then everybody turn the fuck down, you are not at Reading! Get a balanced onstage sound (practice this essential skill) before you mic anything.

You haven't mentioned what type of wedges or Microphones you are using, often this is cheap and chearful after everyone has shot their wad on a Custome shop Lesp paul and a marshal stack. Th ereality is that sound quality matters where feedback is concerned. A peak frequency response in a microphone matched to a badly placed wedge that also has a peak in a similar frequency is going to sqeal like a banshee as soon as any volume is applied.

Finally listen to your balanced onstage sound and decide if the tones of the instruments gel together or are trampling over one another making everything indistinct. On a good recorded track, the mix is layered with the vcal on top, frequencies are carved/amended to enable each instrument to have a 'home'. That way the the bass drum provides the attack while the bass guitar sustains the fundamental. The first guitar is up above the bass but thick and percussive while the lead/second guitar cuts through where applicable but without impeeding on the vocals.

If you can afford to go fully IEM, you can cut out the interference that wedges create and with the X-Air have a consistent monitor mix irrespective of the venue. As digital scream says, What you're describing definitely sounds like the fundamental problem that everyone has when running a hybrid setup - you're using monitors for some things, backline for others and IEMs for yet another. Embrace the tech, tell the new faces thats what has to be and get that nice tidy stage sound.

vonLayzonfon

Good stuff, chaps.

Of course we're operating on a shoestring and trying to make the best of whatever rag-tag collection of gear people can bring.  Without throwing fistfuls of money at it I guess the best answer is more practice and a firmer hand.  People tend not to like technical rehearsals, but they also don't like being asked to arrive hours early to a gig in order to do a proper sound check.  Admittedly that's wearing on the punters, too.  Ideally, as you say, I'd like to go full IEM and turn the big boxes down.  I guess we'll have to see what the new kids think, when we get them.

ICBM

Basically:

If the PA is more than adequate, putting the instruments through it will not mask the vocals.

If the PA is less than adequate, putting the instruments through it will mask the vocals.

If you have good backline, and the PA is adequate at best, then it's better to allow the backline to provide at least some of the out-front volume rather than keep it down to inaudible off the stage, since you will then be able to reduce the amount of instruments in the PA.

Adequate also means having subs if you're trying to put kick drum and bass through it - doing that through a typical pair of PA top cabs - even with 15" speakers - will reduce the available headroom and clarity for the vocals drastically, much more so than putting guitars through them.