Gibson R8 or Harley Benton with Pickup Upgrades?

thegummy

Three-ColourSunburst said:

ICBM said:

The Les Paul Tributes are pretty good. You’re paying US wage rates admittedly, but the quality of the basic guitar is excellent from the ones I’ve seen, you just don’t get the cosmetics that you would on a more expensive Gibson. That really shows where the most money is wasted, in fact...

But it’s still true that you could get exactly the same quality of guitar for half the price if it was made in the far east.

I'm not convinced that US wage rates justify the selling price of a stripped-to-the-bone Les Paul Tribute. For example, I almost bought one of the cheaper FGJ Les Paul style guitars, this was made in Japan, which likely has higher wage and employee costs than the US. It had all the cosmetic extras such as binding, Gotoh hardware and proper electrics, rather than those cost-cutting solderless circuit boards that Gibson use. The one I was considering was also £100 less than a Tribute.

I don't think it's true that Japan has higher wages than USA.

Are Gibson's circuit boards are inferior in any way?

Three-ColourSunburst

thegummy said:

I don't think it's true that Japan has higher wages than USA.

Are Gibson's circuit boards are inferior in any way?

Working out the exact costs are when making guitars in Japan vs the US would probably be difficult, given the need to compare them on an industry like-for-like basis, and include all the additional social costs carried by the employer (such as those relating to pensions, welfare and other benefits) plus things such as corporation tax, business rates, rent and so on. I read an article in the New York Times a couple of years ago which estimated that overall manufacturing costs are around 10% higher in Japan than the US.

As to Gibson's circuit boards, I understand that they allow all the guitar's mojo to leak away, and this can only be remedied by fitting vintage correct pots and bumblebee capacitors.

ICBM

The PCBs do have some reliability problems with the connectors as well as making an apparent difference to the sound - the mechanism for which would be capacitance between the traces, which is quite large.

Presumably the economics must add up enough for Gibson to use them, but it does seem a rather unnecessary step given that the wiring loom in a traditional Les Paul isn't exactly complicated in the first place... and I still wonder if it was another Henry change imposed to be deliberately "modern".

rossi

PCB's have only been around since the war and only used on non essential items like nuclear missiles,hospital equipment and Marshall amps .

ICBM

rossi said:

PCB's have only been around since the war and only used on non essential items like nuclear missiles,hospital equipment and Marshall amps .

There are differences in quality though... you wouldn’t want to control a nuclear missile with the sort of thing you would find in a typical 70s TV set.

Three-ColourSunburst

Some food for thought regarding relative manufacturing costs. No wonder so many guitars are made in Indonesia and Mexico. Meanwhile, 'cheap Chinese manufacturing' is rapidly becoming a thing of the past,

https://images2.imgbox.com/29/db/9nWXlGYI_o.jpg

Grumpyrocker

That's very interesting. Especially as it seems it costs more to build in South Korea than the USA.

roberty

An ex of mine worked for a fashion company who had their clothes manufactured in Bangladesh, and it cost them an order of magnitude over the cost of manufacture to do the QC in UK. Seemed a bit mad to me at the time

Three-ColourSunburst

Grumpyrocker said:

That's very interesting. Especially as it seems it costs more to build in South Korea than the USA.

But as we all know, selling prices actually have more to do with marketing and the creation of perceived value than manufacturing costs, and the likes of Gibson can add on a huge premium for the 'kudos' of being made in the US, the added value of their brand name, and all the mojo and unicorn tears that go with them. Oh, and 'hide glue', obviously.

thegummy

Three-ColourSunburst said:

Grumpyrocker said:

That's very interesting. Especially as it seems it costs more to build in South Korea than the USA.

But as we all know, selling prices actually have more to do with marketing and the creation of perceived value than manufacturing costs, and the likes of Gibson can add on a huge premium for the 'kudos' of being made in the US, the added value of their brand name, and all the mojo and unicorn tears that go with them. Oh, and 'hide glue', obviously.

That post would make sense if it was more expensive to build in the USA but your graph suggests otherwise.

Find it very hard to believe.

darthed1981

Grumpyrocker said:

That's very interesting. Especially as it seems it costs more to build in South Korea than the USA.

Explains the plethora of guitar factories in Indonesia as well.

Korea seems to make excellent instruments for reasonable money, so the USA made premium looks even more fishy based on that!

ICBM

It does explain why things like the PRS SE range are approaching what used to be thought of as USA prices now. Although not so much why US PRSs are still three times the price...

SteveRobinson

As always, brands price at what people are willing to pay, they don't price relative to cost of manufacture.

JayGee

OilCityPickups said:

thegummy said:

OilCityPickups said:

I won't get drawn into wood sending vibrations to strings ... but what I will say (and I've stated this lots, and done a lot of practical experimentation on it) is that pickups act as 'contact microphones' as well as straight 'inductors', and thus most pickups unless they are potted in a hard medium such as epoxy send some of the actual 'acoustic' sound of the body to the amp. That sound can interact with the strings because it's in the air and vibrating them via the amplifier, and if it goes too far the guitar will go into howl or feedback. Too much of this pickup microphony is a bad thing, but too little causes pickups to sound characterless and cold.

See that's very interesting to me.

People seem to be so convinced that the pickup can only pick up string vibrations and nothing else.

But when I have a guitar plugged in, use my hand to completely mute the strings then bang or knock on the body, the knocking comes through the amp. So I've always wondered how that could be possible if the pickups only pick up string vibrations and have always thought there must be more to it.

A 'perfect' pickup would indeed only read the strings vibration. However 'perfect' pickups don't actually sound that good. The skill in pickup making is to know which 'imperfections' are the beneficial ones.

Anyone who expounds the rubbish that 'a pickup (particularly a PAF design) can only pick up string vibrations and nothing else' is totally deluded.

Ou hypothetical perfect pickup detects movement of the strings relative to a frame of reference, that frame of reference being the bit of guitar it’s attached to. If the frame of reference is moving (because the bit of guitar the pickup is attached to is resonating as a result of energy transmitted into it by the strings, because you’ve tapped it with your fingers or banged it against something, or because energy is being transferred into it through the air from a really, really, really loud amp) then you’re absolutely going to hear that...


 

darthed1981

SteveRobinson said:

As always, brands price at what people are willing to pay, they don't price relative to cost of manufacture.

Of course, and everyone jumping to defend US made guitar prices here in the way they are, explains why they get away with it!

thegummy

darthed1981 said:

SteveRobinson said:

As always, brands price at what people are willing to pay, they don't price relative to cost of manufacture.

Of course, and everyone jumping to defend US made guitar prices here in the way they are, explains why they get away with it!

Who's defending it?

I see some posts trying to explain it, that's all.

OilCityPickups

thegummy said:

Are Gibson's circuit boards are inferior in any way?

They are largely crap ... the SG versions have jack sockets press fitted into the board ... so when the guitar comes with a floppy socket as mine did from new ... you have no choice but to scrap the board. If you want to change pickups to anything other than Gibson ... tough luck, because the connectors are not easily soldered to aftermarket pickups. To cap it all the quality of the pots used on circuit boards seems lower than the normal Gibson CTS.

TINMAN82

OilCityPickups said:

thegummy said:

Are Gibson's circuit boards are inferior in any way?

They are largely crap ... the SG versions have jack sockets press fitted into the board ... so when the guitar comes with a floppy socket as mine did from new ... you have no choice but to scrap the board. If you want to change pickups to anything other than Gibson ... tough luck, because the connectors are not easily soldered to aftermarket pickups. To cap it all the quality of the pots used on circuit boards seems lower than the normal Gibson CTS.

Which SG models is this? Hi thought the newer range was back to hand wired?

thegummy

OilCityPickups said:

thegummy said:

Are Gibson's circuit boards are inferior in any way?

They are largely crap ... the SG versions have jack sockets press fitted into the board ... so when the guitar comes with a floppy socket as mine did from new ... you have no choice but to scrap the board. If you want to change pickups to anything other than Gibson ... tough luck, because the connectors are not easily soldered to aftermarket pickups. To cap it all the quality of the pots used on circuit boards seems lower than the normal Gibson CTS.

I replaced it immediately when I first got my Gibson cause I already had the replacement pickups that were bought for me as a present but I did keep it and when I was planning to sell it I installed the PCB again thinking it would be worth more with that in it since it's original. Is that possibly not true?

To go on a slight tangent, while I was trying to sell it I bought a Bernie Marsden on credit thinking that I'll just pay it off as soon as the Les Paul sells but then I first decided it was too much hassle trying to sell a guitar at that point and, later, grew to absolutely love the Gibson as a "top 2" guitar. Now I wish I never bought the PRS and am considering selling that!

But, back on point, I thought the only downside of the PCBs were their incompatibility with aftermarket pickups, didn't realise they were fragile and definitely didn't think they'd affect the sound!

OilCityPickups

thegummy said:

OilCityPickups said:

thegummy said:

Are Gibson's circuit boards are inferior in any way?

They are largely crap ... the SG versions have jack sockets press fitted into the board ... so when the guitar comes with a floppy socket as mine did from new ... you have no choice but to scrap the board. If you want to change pickups to anything other than Gibson ... tough luck, because the connectors are not easily soldered to aftermarket pickups. To cap it all the quality of the pots used on circuit boards seems lower than the normal Gibson CTS.

I replaced it immediately when I first got my Gibson cause I already had the replacement pickups that were bought for me as a present but I did keep it and when I was planning to sell it I installed the PCB again thinking it would be worth more with that in it since it's original. Is that possibly not true?

To go on a slight tangent, while I was trying to sell it I bought a Bernie Marsden on credit thinking that I'll just pay it off as soon as the Les Paul sells but then I first decided it was too much hassle trying to sell a guitar at that point and, later, grew to absolutely love the Gibson as a "top 2" guitar. Now I wish I never bought the PRS and am considering selling that!

But, back on point, I thought the only downside of the PCBs were their incompatibility with aftermarket pickups, didn't realise they were fragile and definitely didn't think they'd affect the sound!

They don't affect the sound as such ... except I found the feel of the pots was less pleasant, of course it's impossible to replace one pot if it gets scratchy, and you are stuck with Gibson's switching.

TINMAN82 said:

OilCityPickups said:

thegummy said:

Are Gibson's circuit boards are inferior in any way?

They are largely crap ... the SG versions have jack sockets press fitted into the board ... so when the guitar comes with a floppy socket as mine did from new ... you have no choice but to scrap the board. If you want to change pickups to anything other than Gibson ... tough luck, because the connectors are not easily soldered to aftermarket pickups. To cap it all the quality of the pots used on circuit boards seems lower than the normal Gibson CTS.

Which SG models is this? Hi thought the newer range was back to hand wired?

This was two or three years ago, so probably only concerns second hand instruments now,