Gibson R8 or Harley Benton with Pickup Upgrades?

thegummy

I've found that some people haven't updated their knowledge base that was gained 30 years ago before the internet was available and them "knowing something" meant a random person had once told them it in a pub one time.

Re: the Gibson R8s - when I saw loads of photos posted of them I thought they just looked like a standard Les Paul but when I saw one in person they really look incredible.

Arktik83

It's always going to be down to how you react to it.  If you can pick up a hot rodded harley benton and it'd make you feel just as satisfied as playing an Gibson R8 then go for it!  

It's like anything in life, like cars, tech etc.  You can always get something function-able for a reasonable price, however if you want that feeling of luxury then you usually have to spend big.  Of course the perception of luxury is subjective. 

If it were me I'd buy a Harley Benton from Thomann, give it a good college try and then go to a shop and try a Gibson R8 and if they feel the same to you and you wouldn't have any problem with sticking to the harley benton then go ahead with your plan of swapping the pups/setup.  

I mean you can generally feel a difference in quality just by strumming a few chords and playing a few licks and get a feel for how the guitar feels against your body/sounds acoustically.

NelsonP

I have an Epi gary clark casino. It has a switchcraft selector and jack and gibson pickups. It is made by Gibson,  in China. It's a great guitar. 

Now I've not played an ES330 as I could not justify the price.  But i have no doubt that it would be a better finished and nicer playing instrument.  

Gibson R8 vs Epi Tribute Plus might be a interesting comparison

Simon_M

merciful-evans said:

Simon_M said:

 I’m pretty confident a HB can sound every bit as good/the same as an R8 with a pickup change and a set up. 

Well, (on post #2) you answered your own question. That's that sorted then!

Ah, silly me. I am a giddy goat.

Everyone! We’re done. I answered my own question on post #2 (sort of). No further discussion required. Anyone considering posting should refrain from doing so. 

Fun. Has. Been. Cancelled. 

normula1

It would be interesting to do a genuine blindfolded test of Les Paul shaped guitars and see which one came out top. No touching of headstocks allowed....
I wonder if tone is anything like taste where a good percentage is actually visual.

Brize

poopot said:

No... your Harley Benton les Paul will never feel the same to play as a proper vintage Gibson les Paul...

but...

Anything Gibson have made since the 60’s will also not feel like a proper vintage les Paul... r8’s r9’s, true historics etc etc etc

and here’s why!

on the left, the fret scale used by gibson since the early 60’s on the right the original vintage fret scale they used on all their guitars prior to the change!... a bit of a difference no?



 

Which guitar is that dot neck from? Doesn't look like anything Gibson ever put out to me.

terada

Of course there’s no difference between them. You have to go for an r9 before you really feel the difference. 

poopot

Brize said:

Which guitar is that dot neck from? Doesn't look like anything Gibson ever put out to me.

You’re right there... but it uses the same 24.625 scale...

Nikc

Lets be honest if you have to have a Gibson Les Paul then only a Gibson will do and a reissue probably does it best (except for a real 58 or 59). If you have to have a Les Paul but can't afford/justify the cost then an Epiphone is a real Les Paul. If you want a great playing excellent quality 'Les Paul' and couldn't give a ....... for brand - hunt down a Tokai - Avoid Chinese counterfeits the world should now be a better place

dazzajl

I had one of the Harley B 335s that’s been well documented on here. Was essentially the HB wood with everything, including the frets replaced by ‘sensible, quality’ hardware. 

I sold it after buying a 2013 Standard LP that had been beautifully upgraded that stole
my heart. The only LP I’ve ever really bonded with. 

I didn’t sell it because it wasn’t good enough. It looked fabulous, was a joy to play, sounded like a Gibson 335 should and would do anyone proud. It went because I could get the sounds and feel I wanted from a much smaller and more comfortable (to me) guitar. 

So my own personal experience says, no you can’t get HB to become a Gibson with some pickup upgrades. But you can get a HB to become an equally performing guitar with a more thorough workover. 

ICBM

If you want it purely for how it sounds in a mix to a listener then the HB will be fine, probably even without a pickup upgrade. Just set it up well and you’re done.

If you want it for how it feels and sounds to you when you’re playing it, then the Gibson will be a lot better. Whether it justifies the price difference is the question.

lovestrat74

Well not quite R8 vs HB but... if you're in a hurry check out his comment at 6.45

Also note Rob's change of opinion at 11.08 when he can't see what he is playing to 19.40 ... Surely proof that we hear and feel with our eyes 

crunchman

I've got more experience of cheaper basses and Fender style guitars than with budget Les Paul style guitars, but there is a difference as you get up the price range (as long as you choose the right specs).

I've got a Mexican made Strat.  It's a perfectly serviceable guitar, but the poly finish doesn't feel as nice as my US AVRI Strat.  It also won't age nearly as nicely as the nitro on my US guitar, which is aging nicely after 15 years.

More importantly, the hardware isn't as good on the Mexican guitar.  I want to upgrade the pickups at some point as they are the weakest link on that guitar, but it's not just pickups.  The pots feel scratchy in comparison.  There are one or tow other things on it where you can tell that corners have been cut.

If you go down to the Harley Benton / Squier price range, there will have been more corners cut.  To get something comparable with a high end guitar, you are probably going to need to replace all the hardware, as well as the pickups.  You are probably talking somewhere around £300 for that.  It does depend exactly what hardware you put on, and whether you do the work yourself or pay someone else.  The fret job you get on those basic guitars won't be very good, so you will need to add a bit more to that to get a fret dress and set up.  You are probably looking at close to £400. 

Even then they won't feel the same.  Cheaper guitars either seem to have poly finish on the neck that's thicker than Joey Essex, or that satin finish that feels cheap and nasty.  I know nitro can be sticky at first, but once it's had a few years of playing, the neck feels lovely.

You can argue about the upcharge for the more expensive guitars. As far as I'm concerned, the higher end Custom Shop Gibsons and Fenders are overpriced.  £5k for a 59 reissue is ridiculous - especially when the 58 reissue is a grand and half cheaper, and is essentially the same guitar.  The prices they were selling at last year are where they should be.

They are never going to be really cheap though.  I built a guitar at Crimson a few months back.  There is a huge amount of work that goes into it.  By the time I finished the wiring at home, I spent more than 60 hours on mine - and that doesn't have a gloss finish, or any fancy inlays, which would add more time to the process.   Fender and Gibson also wind their own pickups, which adds more labour time.  Even if the staff there do things in a quarter of the time it took me, you are still looking at somewhere around 20 hours of labour at minimum - probably significantly more on a Custom Shop level guitar.  That won't be cheap in the US.  The company will also have other costs relating to staff on top of that, like health insurance.  Add in other overheads, import duty, and a mark up for the retailer to make a living, and you aren't ever going to get a quality, US made, gloss finished, guitar for less than £1500.

rossi

We are lucky to live at a time when you can but a good playable guitar for a 100 -200 quid  .I wish it had been like that in the late 50's early 60's when I started to to play .This doesnt mean that we dont want high end US models.I drive a Golf but that doesnt mean I dont want a newish  Mustang  (not the latest one ).That HB will be fine ,giggable and sound good (as long as its a good un ).

      It doesnt mean the player shouldnt aspire or even perspire towards a yank tank.Names  are important.I used to sometimes get press passes to the F1 Silverstone tests   through contacts and pure bluff  .I had a fairy cheap SLR set up  and had to show my pass to get into the pit lane.I had to have a pass to get in though sometimes I slipped through The minute I actually started making some money from photography I bought a pro DSLR camera and some big white lenses.After that no one checked my passes.I had pro gear,everyone cooperated ,drivers ,team bosses .This was when most amateurs didnt have  that kind of high end stuff  .The name is sometimes  important  but you still have to take a sellable shot  to make it pay .Same with guitars .A Gibson doesnt make you a pro  but a HB probably never will.

tony99

rossi said:

.A Gibson doesnt make you a pro  but a HB probably never will.

Now that is an interesting theory.

darthed1981

rossi said:

A Gibson doesnt make you a pro  but a HB probably never will.

Not the first mention of gear snobbery on the touring circuit I've heard.  Lets face it the venn diagram of "gear snobs" and "lawyers" here crosses over way more than "gear snobs" and "pro musicians" - but those two do cross over.

To be fair though, if someone gives you crap about your HB, you can smash it over their head without worrying too much about the cost.

You have to be a very successful lawyer to do that with an R8.

thegummy

tony99 said:

rossi said:

.A Gibson doesnt make you a pro  but a HB probably never will.

Now that is an interesting theory.

Or total nonsense.

You can't con your way to being a professional musician by having a brand name guitar.

TINMAN82

thegummy said:

tony99 said:

rossi said:

.A Gibson doesnt make you a pro  but a HB probably never will.

Now that is an interesting theory.

Or total nonsense.

You can't con your way to being a professional musician by having a brand name guitar.

If I’m reading correctly he said “a Gibson doesn’t make you a pro”, so exactly what your saying.

Its not snobbery to suggest that someone who makes a living primarily from playing guitar probably isn’t going to choose a HB as his main tool.

Three-ColourSunburst

rossi said:

...It doesnt mean the player shouldnt aspire or even perspire towards a yank tank.Names  are important.I used to sometimes get press passes to the F1 Silverstone tests   through contacts and pure bluff  .I had a fairy cheap SLR set up  and had to show my pass to get into the pit lane.I had to have a pass to get in though sometimes I slipped through The minute I actually started making some money from photography I bought a pro DSLR camera and some big white lenses.After that no one checked my passes.

So we should shell out loads of our hard-earned cash on 'aspirational' brands simply because of how this might influence what others who also buy into the mythology of branding think about us? Balls to that!

A similar tale.

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/amazing-the-reactions-to-the-name-on-a-headstock-symbolism-over-substance.1849153/

thegummy

TINMAN82 said:

thegummy said:

tony99 said:

rossi said:

.A Gibson doesnt make you a pro  but a HB probably never will.

Now that is an interesting theory.

Or total nonsense.

You can't con your way to being a professional musician by having a brand name guitar.

Its not snobbery to suggest that someone who makes a living primarily from playing guitar probably isn’t going to choose a HB as his main tool.

That's true but very different to what the other person said.

Most people who are very in to guitar will likely buy a more expensive guitar than a HB but that doesn't mean it would hinder them in any way if they chose to use that.