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In this Discussion
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Truss Rods
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Comments
Nice to hear from John too, he's such a great builder, hopefully he'll get back into it soon
(formerly customkits)
With all the string tension on the front side of the neck, there is simply no reason any neck should ever have a back-bow that needs correcting with a truss rod, unless either the piece of wood has been badly chosen, or it's been made wrong.
"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski
"Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
I’ve experienced exactly the same as you guys with the one way/traditional rods. When building, I’ve had zero trouble with them and especially when preloading the rod when gluing up, it can be made to work both ways for full control of the neck.
I also work on a lot of vintage 50’s Gibson guitars (refrets, fretwork, fret levelling) and, in my experience, the rods have worked perfectly fine in all of them.
(formerly miserneil)
Just to speak up for 2 ways a bit-
Doesn't rely on longitudinal wood compression so no messing with extra packers or invasive anchor repairs years down the line. And praps that's why they seem to me generally to need less attention with weather changes.
2-way gives a head start recovering e.g. when a head case decided to do the nut up so damned tight it feels seized, on a 2 month-old guitar, the neck's taken a set and keeps reverting after weighting & heat. Sure you wouldn't rely solely on it to re-educate a neck but it's a convenient helper.
OTOH the same guy potentially could split off a fretboard with a strip+rod type so yes not perfect.
I haven't heard of one breaking yet, but trad rod breakages and anchor problems aren't exactly unknown. Welds breaking is new to me but it's dead easy welds with that area & thickness to go at, would hazard either cheapo with bad QC or apprentice was let loose.
Each to their own and I totally see why people like one thing or another, but I see appealing factors in 2-ways and don't see trad rods as perfect, which this thread kind of gives the impression of. Not that 2-ways are perfect for that matter but just thought some balance in order.
The only experience I’ve had building with a two way rod was trying to salvage a neck, built by a known shyster, which had a hump in it that Quasimodo would have been jealous off. So I chopped the neck up to salvage the rod for future use. However, this one I have (whilst looking like it came from Cheapy McValue’s Luthier Supply’s) does seem rather heavy and clunky but, as mentioned, it’s probably from the cheap and nasty end of things. I can certainly see the merits of the two way rod.
Have any of you chaps built with a truss rod with the adjuster wheel at the heel? Are these solely for bolt on necks or would they work/are they available for a set neck too? I have a project in the offing that may require such a thing.
(formerly miserneil)
Hi @IvisonGuitars not at all mate, just felt maybe worth putting the other side out there a wee bit. Interesting thread all round, I like these sort of things, the more the merrier.
I've got carbon fibre strips to try as well, the limba neck I've got is so lightweight that i don't want to use just a truss rod, can't remember if it's cut for a traditional truss rod though
(formerly customkits)
(formerly customkits)
Could see see that working in a SC. Not sure how you’d do it on a DC type neck with the longer tenon... unless you routed out a recess in the tenon itself...
I think, given the tenon on a DC, routing out for a wheel would weaken the neck RIGHT in the place you didn’t want it so the ‘problem’ would be moved from the headstock to the heel end. Nowhere near as weak as adding a P90 route like they did for the Specials in ‘59.
That said, I think there is far too much made of the 17 degree headstock angle/truss rod access being so fragile and a lot of mis-information suggesting it’s a sure fire break point. OBVIOUSLY it is THE weak spot but then so would a 14 degree headstock angle, if you dropped them both flat on their backs under string tension, they’d both break.
Of the vintage Gibson’s I’ve owned or worked on (and I know @ICBM is another advocate of this) the ones with the grain that pretty much follows the curvature of the headstock angle are MUCH stronger than those that don’t. I had a ‘59 Junior with a headstock that looked like it had been used to dig roads but had never broken. Sure enough, the grain followed the headstock angle.
IMO a lot of the strength of the neck comes right at the start of the build from the choice of wood and grain direction.
(formerly miserneil)
This is the Stew Mac double action rod that I use when I'm making MM style guitars, it works fine. It can be made so it can be pulled out and pushed back in again upside down, but to be honest with you once the neck has been finished and used for a while they are almost impossible to pull out again.
Yes you can be use it on set neck guitar but they do look a bit odd, on a LPJ DC you just have to cut a small piece out up the pick guard as Music Man do. The biggest problem is when you glue the neck in trying to keep the glue away from the wheel, real pain in the back side job. Then of course you have to cover the wheel up while the guitar is being sprayed.
Your life will improve when you realise it’s better to be alone than chase people who do not really care about you. Saying YES to happiness means learning to say NO to things and people that stress you out.
https://www.facebook.com/grahame.pollard.39/
Do you think it would weaken it too much
(formerly customkits)
I have a bit of a damaged wrist so typing one handed long process, most likely going to be out of action for at least a week possibly 2. Decided to go down to my daughters in Dorset next week so I'm not tempted to go in the workshop and try working one hand it.
The distance from the top of the finger board to the underside of the wheel is about 20mm. I don't think this would be suitable for a LPJ DC as the wood you have to cutaway for the wheel would weaken an already not so strong neck joint. I suppose if you move the neck into the body so the 22nd fret is at the edge of the body that might work. there's no reason why this type of rod could not be used on a LPJ SC or any guitar where there is a gap between the end of the fingerboard to the neck pickup even better if there's no neck pickup.
Interestingly Grainger make a wheel adjuster that fits into the end of a conventional rod that’s one way or two way providing the adjuster takes a hex key. I haven't used one but I've heard they work very well, and of course if the guitar body can take wheel adjuster the neck doesn't have to be taken off the body to adjust the rod. I'm seriously considering making some T/C’s with this fitting, just think how much time you can save setting up a neck without having to remove it from the body, or removing the pick guard to get at the adjuster.
https://graingerguitarparts.com/products/grainger-truss-rod-wheel-adaptor
Your life will improve when you realise it’s better to be alone than chase people who do not really care about you. Saying YES to happiness means learning to say NO to things and people that stress you out.
https://www.facebook.com/grahame.pollard.39/
Over many years I've changed the types of trust rod I use
Vintage style single action rod installed straight or curved, although I've called it vintage virtually all manufacturers use this type of rod today. There are exceptions of course the first one that comes to mind is Music Man, plus of course a lot of custom builders are now using the newer style slim 2 way rod, which our deal with at the end of this piece.
This is the type of trust rod I started to use in the early 60s, I only ever install these now with a curve, I also change the nut that comes with them to long tubular adjuster (see photo below) these are adjusted with the hex key. I also fit a larger half washer beyond the one that is supplied. The reason for long tubular adjuster there almost twice as much thread on these adjusters, so there is far less chance stripping the thread on the rod or the adjuster. The big advantage with this type of adjuster, the amount of wood that is removed from a lean back head stock is minimal, as the hex key fits inside the adjust, as opposed to a nut driver that goes on the outside of a nut adjuster.
There are 2 ways of fitting this type of rod, the quickest and simplest way is use it as a straight compression rod. I rout the channel for these on an overhead pin router, all you do is prop the neck blank up one end, what end will depend on whether the adjuster is going to be at the head stock or the body end. The channel is routed a few mm deeper than the rod, so I can glue in a strip maple over the top of the rod. This can also be done on a table saw, when you read the next section on how to do a curve channel it's exactly the same procedure but you go straight across the saw with no jig, and the neck blank only propped up one end, very quick very efficient. This way of doing it can only be used on lean back head stocks with the channel machined all the way through.
The second way of fitting this type of rod you cut a curved channel, this is quite time consuming job, and as such I was always looking the different types of rod to use. There are many ways of doing this. I was shown how to do it on a table saw a very long time ago, I don't do it this way anymore but there's a link below that's a straight forward way once you've made the jig, you get repeatability every time. I'm pretty sure these days most manufacturers cut this channel on a CNC. If you do a search on YouTube there are loads of different ways of cutting a curve channel.
https://youtu.be/9Okx5YLePPs
You can see from the 2 pictures above how little wood has to be removed for this type of internal hex adjuster. The fender neck only has a 5 or 6 mm hole for a hex key to fit. The lean back head style neck has an 8mm slot to gain access to the adjuster, By doing it this way you keep as much wood in the head stock as possible.
The next rod I come across about 25 years ago, is made up of an Aluminium U section. In the U section was a standard 1 way rod, that was held in place almost the same way as a normal 1 way rod, but held in the aluminium. The rod had a slight curve, that’s created by small blocks of nylon. These work well, but occasionally they can make the neck too stiff and straight. These are quick to install you just rout a straight channel. If the adjuster was going to be at the body end, you stop the route about 20mm before the end of the neck, then drill appropriate size hole for adjuster to go through.
Next was one of the first type of duel action rods I used, they are made in Germany by ABM. They can only be used at the body end of the neck as adjusting mechanism is quite big. I used them mainly on double octave bass necks, as they make very long rods. I didn't stay with this rod for very long they had a few manufacturing issues, quite often the rod had o bit of rust on them. Because I could only use them at the body end of the neck it meant I had to have 2 different styles of rod in stock, eventually I stopped using them.
They do look much better than this when you buy them, these have been hanging about my workshop for at least 15 years, same goes for the aluminium box section one's above.
That's all for now, a lot more to come.
Your life will improve when you realise it’s better to be alone than chase people who do not really care about you. Saying YES to happiness means learning to say NO to things and people that stress you out.
https://www.facebook.com/grahame.pollard.39/
The next rod I come across was made by Gotoh, a 2 way, but only using a single rod. The rod had a curve in it as a standard 1 way rod. The curve is created by a small block of Nylon about halfway down the channel. This was a bit of an odd one, it was designed to go in a Fender style neck but instead of adjuster being accessible from the heel end of the neck, it's stopped well before the end. There was a small gearbox intended to be inserted into the heel of the neck. The Truss rod connected up with this, there was a small hole in the side of the heel were a hex key fitted in to adjust the rod. This is all very ingenious, I built one this way but really didn't like the idea of removing so much wood from the heel of neck. Because this rod was quite short it couldn't be used in a Fender neck without the gearbox. It could be used with the adjuster at the headstock. This rod work very well, the only real disadvantage it was about 9mm square, that was a lot of wood to remove from the neck. Even so, the rod worked, didn't seem to affect the sound of the guitar or the strength of the neck, also made the neck very stiff.
The way this rod worked using only a single rod that creating a 2 way system, it had one end of the rod fix to the channel, the adjuster went through a piece of metal that was welded to the channel. if you look at the photo you will see that the adjuster is held in one position, when the adjuster was tuned it pulled the rod up or pushed away from the adjuster, giving front bow or back bow.
Simon of Gus guitars introduce me to this 2 way German made rod. This is basically a vintage rod that's installed with a slight curve, it's anchored at one end in the traditional way, where it differs the adjuster instead of going up against a washer is held in place by a piece of aluminium (see photo below). This works the same way as the Gotoh 2 way rod above, but without being in a metal channel.
I've already mentioned this rod earlier on in the post, I buy them from Stew Mac, it's very similar to the Music Man 2 way rod that has a wheel as the adjuster, I only use this road when making MM type guitars.
https://www.stewmac.com/browse/Hot_Rod_Truss_Rod?lac_guid=46b97627-15ba-e911-80ef-ecb1d775572a&utm_campaign=M2550&utm_medium=email&utm_source=NPA&utm_content=M2550_B_20190809
Modern slim line 2 way truss.
Although I called them the new slim line 2 way rod, they have been around for about 15 years.
This is the rod that I use for most of my builds now. This rod is becoming more and more popular with custom builders. It's relatively straight forward to install, although it's not just a straight channel then throw in as been stated elsewhere.
I rout a channel 6mm wide 9mm deep to start with, this is then modified slightly. First at the none adjuster end the channel has to be about .5mm deeper so the block at the end of the road sit slightly deeper in the channel, this is to allow the round part of the rod to touch the bottom of the channel. This is repeated at the adjust the end of the rod, but slightly longer so the adjuster is clear of the bottom of the channel. When routing a channel for lean back headstock for this type of truss rod, the channel needs to be slightly wider at the headstock end, this is to allow for standard hex key to be turned to adjust the rod.
When I first started to use this type of rod I used to cut the channel 11 mm deep, so I could put Maple strip in on top of the rod. I decided this serves no real purpose, it was possibly just a hangover from the vintage way of fitting rods.
When I fit these rods I put in 2 small pieces of rubber between the round rod in the flat metal, this is done to ensure if there is no real tension on the rod they won't rattle.
You can see from the above photo how little wood has to be removed from the head stock to allow the Allen key access to the adjuster, as opposed to how much wood has to be removed for conventional truss rod with a nut adjuster.
The new slim line 2 way rods are also available with a vintage style adjuster
Your life will improve when you realise it’s better to be alone than chase people who do not really care about you. Saying YES to happiness means learning to say NO to things and people that stress you out.
https://www.facebook.com/grahame.pollard.39/
(formerly miserneil)