When does a guitarist become a musician?

camf

Then I suppose, in general terms, it's just anyone who plays a musical instrument. Since the act of picking up a guitar, or a tambourine or whatever and playing anything is expressing a desire to make some kind of noise. So everyone on the forum is a musician, or sees themselves as one. Which is probably true. 

I suppose it might be better to ask the question, "When, in your personal opinion, does a guitarist become a musician?" Since everyone will probably feel quite different about that. I suspect a working classical guitarist, a school music teacher, a struggling singer/songwriter, a wealthy guitar collector and a eleven year old making youtube shredding videos are unlikely to come to an agreement on that. 

VimFuego

camf said:

Yes, but didn't John Kennedy Toole seek out an audience for his work? He tried to find publishers, so I'd guess he was writing to be read. It's a tragedy that he didn't live to see how much people enjoyed his work. 

he did, so by that criteria is a guitarist who tries to join a band or get gigs and fails still a musician? Is it success in finding an audience the criteria?

camf

I'd say yes, in my opinion, that guitarist is definitely a musician. It's not about success or payment but, again for me, it's about the desire to seek out an audience, to express something, and to share it with others. So from that list I gave above, I think the only one I'd say wasn't a musician might be the wealthy guitar collector (unless he/she was playing them to other people). 

VimFuego

camf said:

Then I suppose, in general terms, it's just anyone who plays a musical instrument. Since the act of picking up a guitar, or a tambourine or whatever and playing anything is expressing a desire to make some kind of noise. So everyone on the forum is a musician, or sees themselves as one. Which is probably true. 

I suppose it might be better to ask the question, "When, in your personal opinion, does a guitarist become a musician?" Since everyone will probably feel quite different about that. I suspect a working classical guitarist, a school music teacher, a struggling singer/songwriter, a wealthy guitar collector and a eleven year old making youtube shredding videos are unlikely to come to an agreement on that. 

I think there has to be an element of expression, merely picking up an instrument and playing something note for note is not, IMO, expression. There has to be an attempt to make music, not just recreate it, to use the form to express or communicate something (and from reading what you've said I think I prefer communicate to express) though that doesn't mean there has to be an audience, though it's nice if there is (and even nicer if they pay). I actually think we are basically in agreement here, just looking at it slightly differently. 

camf

Hmmm. I'm not sure about communicating versus expressing. Surely John Kennedy Toole spectacularly failed to communicate because he couldn't find a publisher to distribute his work, but he spectacularly succeeded in expressing himself because his work has stood the test of time and after his death, and A Confederacy of Dunces is now widely regarded as a work of genius. All he could have agency over was expressing himself. Surely communication relies on the response of the receiver and, just as for John Kennedy Toole, a musician can't really be defined by that response.

I agree about the element of expression as being key. When I was much younger, back in the 70s, I was at loads of gigs where other glued-up kids were on a cruddy stage, thrashing the crap out of a drum-kit, a bass and guitars that weren't even in tune, or even attempted to be in tune, but they were expressing an anger and fury that was palpable, and hundreds of people were paying money to come and see them do it. Definitely not everyone's idea of music, but it was music for them and even now there will be people who remember these nights as being hugely important and formative (like me!) The music being crude or untutored or just plain crap didn't discount them as being musicians for those who happily paid their money - the main thing was what they were expressing. 

robinbowes

There is no qualitative aspect to the definition of a musician - anyone making music is a musician.

R.

camf

robinbowes said:

There is no qualitative aspect to the definition of a musician - anyone making music is a musician.

R.

Am I wrong to disagree?

robinbowes

camf said:

robinbowes said:

There is no qualitative aspect to the definition of a musician - anyone making music is a musician.

Am I wrong to disagree?

Yes

I'm actually agreeing with your previous post.

R.

camf

No, I'm incredibly snooty about what I think makes a musician. Because I think musicians are the ****ing greatest people and, in my opinion, you need to have achieved incredibly complex and advanced levels of humanity before you can qualify for that title. Guitar players, on the other hand, are nothing to me. Barely register as human.

So the actual point at which a guitarist becomes a musician is the point where I think you've elevated yourself from just being just another barely human guitarist. It's quite simple, really. 

robinbowes

I totally agree with your sentiment, but you're describing the difference between a good musician and a bad musician.



R.

camf

FFS @robinbowes, I'm just going to explain this to you once, okay? Evolutionary scale: right at the arse end you have guitarists... then good guitarists.... then a huge metaphysical gap wider than most humans can comprehend.... and then you have musicians, and then at the very top, musicians who sometimes choose to do bad things. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BAD MUSICIANS. 

robinbowes

Heh, OK

robinbowes

I put it to you that drummers and bass players are somewhat before guitarists on the evolutionary scale

camf

I knew you'd see sense.

VimFuego

and don't me started on the banjo players!!!

sweepy

A Guitarist becomes a Musician when he or she stops thinking of themselves as a guitarist and works for the music and not randomly throwing licks out there  

gringopig

.

Paul31

I would say when one can make their own songs up on guitar, or a band/group working together to write songs together and the guitar to fit in. Also a guitarist can maybe alter existing songs/tunes to make their interpretations of them to an extent as well.

Also one may not need a great knowledge of music theory, many have not had this and wrote great material just using their ear and what comes to them from their minds eye.

PolarityMan

Paul31 said:

I would say when one can make their own songs up on guitar, or a band/group working together to write songs together and the guitar to fit in. Also a guitarist can maybe alter existing songs/tunes to make their interpretations of them to an extent as well.

Also one may not need a great knowledge of music theory, many have not had this and wrote great material just using their ear and what comes to them from their minds eye.

what about classcal guitars who just recite pre-written music or jazz guitarists? 

Mark1960

Music - Art of expressing or causing emotion by melodious and harmonious combination of notes. - Collins English Gem dictionary definition. Hence somebody who can do the above, which in my mind includes the giging band playing in a pub which get people tapping their feet / dancing, and or enjoying the sound created.