When does a guitarist become a musician?

Rocker

My take on this question is the moment a guitarist stops listening to himself exclusively and plays what is needed by the band in support of the singer(s).

Paul31

PolarityMan said:

Paul31 said:

I would say when one can make their own songs up on guitar, or a band/group working together to write songs together and the guitar to fit in. Also a guitarist can maybe alter existing songs/tunes to make their interpretations of them to an extent as well.

Also one may not need a great knowledge of music theory, many have not had this and wrote great material just using their ear and what comes to them from their minds eye.

what about classcal guitars who just recite pre-written music or jazz guitarists? 

Hi! PolarityMan! I would class them very good players in many cases, but of course a few improvise and even make fresh material up as well which i personally like alot.

camf

So are you saying a classical guitarist or jazz guitarist has less claim to be a musician that an indie or rock guitarist in an originals band? That's a bold call. 

Paul31

camf said:

So are you saying a classical guitarist or jazz guitarist has less claim to be a musician that an indie or rock guitarist in an originals band? That's a bold call. 

Hi camf! No not really it is just that guitarist that just copy others note for note can do that with much practise, so in a way is like painting by numbers, it is like in the first 5 years i played i just copied, and i got the stage i could even play Shawn Lane songs, also some of the 6 year old players can copy anything now with practise i watch some on the net. Dont get me wrong they are excellent players and i would imagine will create in time, but i would rather see the skills in creative talent and of course is just my view.

Many Jazz musicians though do make up their own stuff, i dont know much about classical guitar players and if they make their own stuff up or improvise much so cant comment on that.

camf

@Paul31 See, I think this is getting to the crux of it -- I don't think it's to do with what notes you play, but why you're playing them. When I talked about audience earlier in this thread, I think the assumption was that I just meant paying punters but I was thinking wider than that. Classical musicians learn their parts perfectly and play it note for note from the score, but definitely strive to create a beautiful rendition that memorably moves an audience. The trombone player in the Band of the Grenadier Guards is part of a very precise and highly trained band originally tasked to inspire, and create pride and pageant for his or her fellow soldiers, and to impress those in higher authority or intimidate the enemy -- so they're tasked with creating a range of very different emotional responses with their particular musical expertise. Surely these are all top class musicians by anyone's reckoning. See, I like my vague definition, that a musician is someone who plays their instrument with enough skill and with the purpose of affecting the emotions of another listener or group of listeners.

As another example, if ten thousand years ago, I'm walking through the neolithic woods and I happen to tap my walking stick against a hollowed out log and I notice it makes a pleasing ringing tone, then I'm still just alone in the forrest tapping a beat on a log. But if I pick up the log and take it back to my community, gather them round and tap my special log and they all like the sound, and laugh, and jump around in time to the beat I tap out, then am I not an early musician? 

I'm just musing here.

Paul31

@camf yes i could copy and some folk liked what i played, i suppose i just felt i was cheating and never felt that happy doing it as i said is just me i still enjoy watching others doing it.

Anyhow have fun with your own playing.

camf

@Paul31 Same to you.

Sorry @Rocker, I think I might have pretty much killed this thread with over-enthusiastic navel gazing.

stephen.wood125

When he understands 15% of the concepts that @viz evinces.

My personal feeling is when they understand the form and function, but more importantly stops being "widdly widdly" and plays WITH the band for the sum of the parts.


(i.e not me, I'm shit!)

Barney

When he takes up piano..

PolarityMan

camf said:

So are you saying a classical guitarist or jazz guitarist has less claim to be a musician that an indie or rock guitarist in an originals band? That's a bold call. 

No im saying exactly the opposite

stephen.wood125

@Barney Wiz'd

fandango

camf said:

No, I'm incredibly snooty about what I think makes a musician. Because I think musicians are the ****ing greatest people and, in my opinion, you need to have achieved incredibly complex and advanced levels of humanity before you can qualify for that title. Guitar players, on the other hand, are nothing to me. Barely register as human.

So the actual point at which a guitarist becomes a musician is the point where I think you've elevated yourself from just being just another barely human guitarist. It's quite simple, really. 

Ah, you must be the Mark Lawrence of the guitar world. And I claim my £5.

PS can you tell me if you think I’m a musician. Or do you have to come see me at one of my sellout shows first?

camf

You just need to answer the question... am I going stay out here in the woods on my own tapping my stick on this log, or am I going to take it back to the cave and impress the kids?

octatonic

A group of blind men heard that a strange animal, called an elephant, had been brought to the town, but none of them were aware of its shape and form.

Out of curiosity, they said: "We must inspect and know it by touch, of which we are capable". So, they sought it out, and when they found it they groped about it. In the case of the first person, whose hand landed on the trunk, said "This being is like a thick snake".

For another one whose hand reached its ear, it seemed like a kind of fan. As for another person, whose hand was upon its leg, said, the elephant is a pillar like a tree-trunk. The blind man who placed his hand upon its side said the elephant, "is a wall". Another who felt its tail, described it as a rope.

The last felt its tusk, stating the elephant is that which is hard, smooth and like a spear.

camf

I'm changing my position and getting fully behind @octatonic's elephant. 

ToneControl

camf said:

Yes, but didn't John Kennedy Toole seek out an audience for his work? He tried to find publishers, so I'd guess he was writing to be read. It's a tragedy that he didn't live to see how much people enjoyed his work. 

not sure how this would work:

Are you saying that someone who plays grade 8 pieces on classical guitar or piano at home for their own pleasure and doesn't seek an audience is not a musician, but someone is a musician who plays very badly and has been playing for 6 weeks but has started doing open mic nights?

ToneControl

Paul31 said:

I would say when one can make their own songs up on guitar, or a band/group working together to write songs together and the guitar to fit in. Also a guitarist can maybe alter existing songs/tunes to make their interpretations of them to an extent as well.

Also one may not need a great knowledge of music theory, many have not had this and wrote great material just using their ear and what comes to them from their minds eye.

I don't think you need to be a composer to be a musician

Paul31

ToneControl said:

Paul31 said:

I would say when one can make their own songs up on guitar, or a band/group working together to write songs together and the guitar to fit in. Also a guitarist can maybe alter existing songs/tunes to make their interpretations of them to an extent as well.

Also one may not need a great knowledge of music theory, many have not had this and wrote great material just using their ear and what comes to them from their minds eye.

I don't think you need to be a composer to be a musician

Hi! @Tonecontrol i did not say that i said also not note for note copying, i play some stuff similar to the orginals but maybe just be a little creative with your playing thats all.

Of course some fans like to hear things just like the originals, and the old saying goes you will never please them all and is just my view and it keeps me playing at least although only a few hours each week nowadays.

Enjoy your own playing and methods.

monquixote

I think you are a musician if you can make something recognisable as music.

It's too easy to put people who've had classical training on a pedistal (I used to). I've come accross people who can flawllessly sight read who can't write, jam, improvise, groove and don't really appreciate what they are playing. Similarly I know people who've written amazing songs play 3 instruments to a standard where they can have a room full of people on their feet applauding, can play anything you play to them back to you, but don't know what a chord or a scale are.

Each is fantastic in his own context and useless out of it.

Paul31

monquixote said:

can play anything you play to them back to you.

What are talking rhythm here, if complex solos that is certainly great it took me ages sometimes to get them down right and sound even reasonable.