2 hrs of Guitar Porn

GoldenEraGuitars

• vintage isn’t “better”
• modern isn’t “better”
• expensive isn’t “better”
• blind tests don’t matter a shit
• having a YouTube based opinion doesn’t matter a shit
• signal chain is extremely important 
• the player is even more important 

Moral of the bullet points? Every instrument and every player is different, not better.

Some people prefer vintage, some prefer modern. 

Back to the video...

I thoroughly enjoyed this and I think it’s wonderful to see these beautiful guitars and hear about their stories. I’d love to visit @ATB_Guitars but tbh I’d need to go armed with money because let’s face it... it’s better being prepared than panicking on the spot about being able to afford a guitar you’ve fallen in love with

I really get what you mean @clarkefan , I’d be VERY aware that I’m using a vintage guitar if I bought one and part of me would worry constantly about owning it. Still, I’d love to say that I’ve owned something from the 50s or 60s. I suspect a players grade tele or strat from the mid to late 60s might be more realistic for me. At least I can refinish it properly

Grocer_Jack

Absolutely loved the video, also love D + M 's playing and chat too.  I have one pre-CBS Fender and I'd go all vintage if I could afford it - there's just a magic about playing and owning these guitars. I don't buy into the 'vintage is always best' nonsense, and I'm fully aware that I'm guilty of confirmation bias at times, but who cares?  

ATB shop looks fantastic and is now definitely on my list for a visit for an upcoming (ok in 2 years, but I've got to save up!) 'big' birthday. 

Danielsguitars

There is something real happening in some of these old guitars that I'm still trying to work out why, science doesn't work for any of these so called tests imo, people need to build guitars to actually get this fact, they probably won't like this statement because according to most of these people wood doesn't matter or anything else apart from electrics, they need to get over this, shit in shit out as they say and i only ever use unplugged tone for testing first 

I've been building and comparing back to back with some of these holy grail guitars over the last few years, 58 burst and 54 goldtop were my main goals, I've got as close as i can given what materials i have available today and it was close enough for me but they still have an unplugged tone I'd still love to get, hard to put into words but they're mellow and chimey at the same time, then there's the feel, especially the necks which is where i think alot of the tone comes from

Rather than moan about modern guitars are as good or better than vintage guitars try some next to yours first

Three-ColourSunburst

GoldenEraGuitars said:

• vintage isn’t “better”
• modern isn’t “better”

...Moral of the bullet points? Every instrument and every player is different, not better.

You can't say that! Those who, on playing some old guitars, felt that "each in their own way had a depth to their tone I have never heard in a modern guitar" and those - coincidentally in the business of selling "as close as I can get" replicas of vintage guitars - who argue that there is something "real happening" that is nonetheless beyond the reaches of science about them (let's call it 'mojo' then) will be putting you on ignore!

soma1975

Annnnnd.... Ignore. Absolute cretin and a perfect example of that internet phenomenon of self-appointed experts with zero first hand knowledge of the subject they have decided to weigh in on. Embarrassing.  

Anyway, as you were thread

RaymondLin

When will my 2001 Gibson Custom Shop become vintage? 

brooom

Soon mate, but it will never be as vintage as the ones that are already vintage. And therein lies the real problem.

Skipped

Three-ColourSunburst said:

You can't say that! Those who, on playing some old guitars, felt that "each in their own way had a depth to their tone I have never heard in a modern guitar" and those - coincidentally in the business of selling "as close as I can get" replicas of vintage guitars - who argue that there is something "real happening" that is nonetheless beyond the reaches of science about them (let's call it 'mojo' then) will be putting you on ignore!

You are not misunderstanding carefully organised blind testing. You are misunderstanding any "conclusions"  that you think have been reached.

If a professional musician fails to identify his/her own  (17th/18th Century) Italian Violin during double blind testing, he/she would be totally justified in feeling mildly amused.

But here is the serious bit.

Her own instrument has performed flawlessly under concert conditions for the past 20 years. Rock solid stability, tuning, projection. The previous owners report similar consistency for the past 300 years.

Here is the question for you.

Which of these 2 Violins is more likely (to a point of near certainty), to deliver rock solid stability, tuning, more, over the next 20 years.......over the total remaining professional  career of the musician.

Is it their own Violin? Or is it the recently constructed Violin that they first encountered yesterday?

Please base your reply on solid evidence and not any "feelings" or "bias" that you have to deal with.  

stickyfiddle

Wis for that, @GoldenEraGuitars ; 

I've never owned anything remotely vintage, but fully get the appeal, based on the ones I have played. What stops me (other than the cost!) and particularly with old Gibsons is usually really low frets; I would want a bit more height than original frets ever had, and don't want to take a hit on taking an all-original guitar to a re-fretted one. Strangely I've never had that trouble with old Fenders, despite most of the them having frets that are just as low. 

What I will say is you can get close, at least with certain guitars. My ES330 (early 2018 VOS finish) is genuinely up there with the vintage ones I played early last year, at least following a switch from metal to plastic pickup covers. I didn't buy one of those because of a combination of very flat frets, and the logistical nightmare that would ensue to get a fragile, probably-brazilian-rosewood-equipped guitar through 2 flights and across a couple of international borders. But the modern one I bought a few months later is genuinely up there with them. Though my admittedly limited experience suggests that doesn't happen very often. 

I would dearly love an old Strat. Maple board, black or 2-tone sunburst will do just fine. 

stickyfiddle

I see the 62 Strat has been sold. I do wonder if there's an upcoming TPS episode with a very very excited Mickhere...

Skipped

stickyfiddle said:

Wis for that, @GoldenEraGuitars ;; 

I've never owned anything remotely vintage, but fully get the appeal, based on the ones I have played. What stops me (other than the cost!) and particularly with old Gibsons is usually really low frets; I would want a bit more height than original frets ever had, and don't want to take a hit on taking an all-original guitar to a re-fretted one. Strangely I've never had that trouble with old Fenders, despite most of the them having frets that are just as low. 

Just one of the reasons why I have been an advocate for player grade vintage guitars for the whole of the life of this forum, and the Music Radar forums before that.

My position has been....."What is not to like?".

Even so. I am slightly stunned to see that Joe Bonamassa is now playing a Conversion. Sometimes for the whole show. (He doesn't care what it looks like. That is a good thing - he sees it as a working tool).

And I didn't predict that Robben Ford would now be  playing a Conversion, and would tell us (at 4 minutes 20 seconds in the clip) that his previous Les Pauls were simply a journey to this "amazing"  player grade 50s Les Paul.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WVhdzB7Kho&feature=youtu.be&t=200

https://youtu.be/q49JVXPKvqQ?t=259

 

RaymondLin

It does beg the question

1 - Are these guitars great because they are old or
2 - Are these guitars great because they were better made in the 50’s

because if it’s 1 then eventually as the years go by, other guitars will catch up with it.  In 100 years from now does it matter if a guitars is 100 or 120 years old?

if it’s 2 then that just suggest we learn nothing about making guitars in the last 50 years and haven’t improved upon it or able to recreate it which is just absurd surely.

MichaelWatts

RaymondLin said:

It does beg the question

1 - Are these guitars great because they are old or
2 - Are these guitars great because they were better made in the 50’s

because if it’s 1 then eventually as the years go by, other guitars will catch up with it.  In 100 years from now does it matter if a guitars is 100 or 120 years old?

if it’s 2 then that just suggest we learn nothing about making guitars in the last 50 years and haven’t improved upon it or able to recreate it which is just absurd surely.

From my own experience when these guitars are great it is a combination of points 1 and 2. And when they're really great there's nothing else that can touch them. Here's an impromptu vid I shot at ATB (actually just a couple of days after the TPS lads were there) of a 1935 Super 400. I've played a lot of beautiful modern archtops by luthiers such as Linda Manzer, John Monteleone, Cris Mirabella and others but none of them sound like this. Not better, not worse, but different. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-ra_6RqljE

RaymondLin

MichaelWatts said:

RaymondLin said:

It does beg the question

1 - Are these guitars great because they are old or
2 - Are these guitars great because they were better made in the 50’s

because if it’s 1 then eventually as the years go by, other guitars will catch up with it.  In 100 years from now does it matter if a guitars is 100 or 120 years old?

if it’s 2 then that just suggest we learn nothing about making guitars in the last 50 years and haven’t improved upon it or able to recreate it which is just absurd surely.

From my own experience when these guitars are great it is a combination of points 1 and 2. And when they're really great there's nothing else that can touch them. Here's an impromptu vid I shot at ATB (actually just a couple of days after the TPS lads were there) of a 1935 Super 400. I've played a lot of beautiful modern archtops by luthiers such as Linda Manzer, John Monteleone, Cris Mirabella and others but none of them sound like this. Not better, not worse, but different. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-ra_6RqljE

It can't be No. 2 though right? surely we have learn enough to know either

1 - recreate it 100%
2 - improve on it

We have scanning machines, to the nearest micro to be able to know and see in 3D in depth how it is made.  Are there any materials that is used back then that is 100% banned now? I know PRS still uses BRZ wood from their library so that's not out of the question.

If it's simply due to age and how wood settles down, then the longer we get from the 50's the less relevant it gets with guitars from the 90's and 2000.   

guitars4you

RaymondLin said:

It does beg the question

1 - Are these guitars great because they are old or
2 - Are these guitars great because they were better made in the 50’s

because if it’s 1 then eventually as the years go by, other guitars will catch up with it.  In 100 years from now does it matter if a guitars is 100 or 120 years old?

if it’s 2 then that just suggest we learn nothing about making guitars in the last 50 years and haven’t improved upon it or able to recreate it which is just absurd surely.

Neither

Not all old guitars are good - Some do have some 'magical' qualities regarding their tonal character, but whatever magic is in one guitar is not in them all - Equally 2 good ones can have a slightly different tonal character - But some are just 'dead'

To be fair, many builders, be it the small boutique builders, or the Fender Custom Shop team, they have analysed to the nth degree, what makes a good one so special - It is this process that allows them all to build some good 'replicas' - Even the finer detail, certainly regarding tone, can differ from one replica to another - I commented on FB the other day on a similar issue, that recently I received 4 new 64 C/Shop Strats - All good, but slight variation in the acoustic voice and plugged in voice - To the point that me and  a couple of customers played all 4 side by side and we did not pick the same one we'd buy 

I'm sure the likes of @IvisonGuitars and @Danielsguitars ; have analysed many good old 'uns' and indeed 'bad old 'uns' to see what magic they can take from them in order to build their own replica's

Are all replicas just as good to the ultimate nth degree - This is the bit that many may well say No - But the difference is now far more minimal, certainly taking into account, the price, the fact that you can change parts on a replica if required, insurance, care, upkeep, let alone the fear of buy a forgery within the vintage market - To the point now that many will own, gig, play, collect replicas 

The issue to a large degree with the vintage market is that the asking price reflects what the guitar is regarding condition, rarity, originality etc and not about how it feels, plays and sounds - ie a good old 'un and a bad old 'un, will have a similar asking price, assuming same condition etc 

RaymondLin

guitars4you said:

RaymondLin said:

It does beg the question

1 - Are these guitars great because they are old or
2 - Are these guitars great because they were better made in the 50’s

because if it’s 1 then eventually as the years go by, other guitars will catch up with it.  In 100 years from now does it matter if a guitars is 100 or 120 years old?

if it’s 2 then that just suggest we learn nothing about making guitars in the last 50 years and haven’t improved upon it or able to recreate it which is just absurd surely.

Neither

Not all old guitars are good - Some do have some 'magical' qualities regarding their tonal character, but whatever magic is in one guitar is not in them all - Equally 2 good ones can have a slightly different tonal character - But some are just 'dead'

To be fair, many builders, be it the small boutique builders, or the Fender Custom Shop team, they have analysed to the nth degree, what makes a good one so special - It is this process that allows them all to build some good 'replicas' - Even the finer detail, certainly regarding tone, can differ from one replica to another - I commented on FB the other day on a similar issue, that recently I received 4 new 64 C/Shop Strats - All good, but slight variation in the acoustic voice and plugged in voice - To the point that me and  a couple of customers played all 4 side by side and we did not pick the same one we'd buy 

I'm sure the likes of @IvisonGuitars and @Danielsguitars ; have analysed many good old 'uns' and indeed 'bad old 'uns' to see what magic they can take from them in order to build their own replica's

Are all replicas just as good to the ultimate nth degree - This is the bit that many may well say No - But the difference is now far more minimal, certainly taking into account, the price, the fact that you can change parts on a replica if required, insurance, care, upkeep, let alone the fear of buy a forgery within the vintage market - To the point now that many will own, gig, play, collect replicas 

The issue to a large degree with the vintage market is that the asking price reflects what the guitar is regarding condition, rarity, originality etc and not about how it feels, plays and sounds - ie a good old 'un and a bad old 'un, will have a similar asking price, assuming same condition etc 

I see your point, but I am just trying to understand that.

1 - not all vintage guitars are good.
2 - not all replicas are bad (or good either).

However, lets say....to use a number to measure.

If say a very good vintage guitar is 91/100 (for the sake of argument).  You can also get a CS that is 94/100.  Vice versa you can get a 95/100 vintage and 85/100 CS.

But I think it would be unfair to say that there is a vintage guitar that is 100/100 and no other modern guitars can be like that.  Purely because what is 100/100 for 1 person is only 95/100 for another.

The question i guess is how much influence and placebo the vintage element gets in your head when you play it and whether that is worth the money to you.

brooom

I hope I'm not the only one who actually didn't find the tones they got out of the battered 62 strat special at all. Obviously youtube isn't translating the experience appropriately. But still...

soma1975

RaymondLin said:

It does beg the question

1 - Are these guitars great because they are old or
2 - Are these guitars great because they were better made in the 50’s

because if it’s 1 then eventually as the years go by, other guitars will catch up with it.  In 100 years from now does it matter if a guitars is 100 or 120 years old?

if it’s 2 then that just suggest we learn nothing about making guitars in the last 50 years and haven’t improved upon it or able to recreate it which is just absurd surely.

On a completely different day to the one I mentioned earlier I had the pleasure of playing 2 x 50s LP Specials and an early 60s Strat. This time I'd say I was less impressed. Preferred my own Strat to the old one and the Specials while they had lovely necks, weren't instant tonal nirvana in any way for me either. 

Plenty of duffers out there and plenty of things you'd overlook on an old instrument that would have you returning a new one for a refund. 

I certainly don't think old guitars sounded how we are hearing them now back in 1959 but at the same time, back then that new guitar brightness  was being rolled off with shitty or long cables etc. 

p90fool

brooom said:

I hope I'm not the only one who actually didn't find the tones they got out of the battered 62 strat special at all. Obviously youtube isn't translating the experience appropriately. But still...

To be honest, none of them grabbed me very much, but I think it's mainly a result of that "rubbery" feel they get from their close mic technique.

It's that horrible "dead input/IR on the output" thing everyone is doing. That's a very live room, if they'd turned it up, put a big condenser 18 inches away from the amp and ditched the silly pedals it could've sounded awesome, but what they're getting is almost a headphone practice tone. 

Is is a pedal geek show though I guess, so they're never going to get that kind of rootsy vibe which those guitars can excel at.

guitars4you

RaymondLin said:

guitars4you said:

RaymondLin said:

It does beg the question

1 - Are these guitars great because they are old or
2 - Are these guitars great because they were better made in the 50’s

because if it’s 1 then eventually as the years go by, other guitars will catch up with it.  In 100 years from now does it matter if a guitars is 100 or 120 years old?

if it’s 2 then that just suggest we learn nothing about making guitars in the last 50 years and haven’t improved upon it or able to recreate it which is just absurd surely.

Neither

Not all old guitars are good - Some do have some 'magical' qualities regarding their tonal character, but whatever magic is in one guitar is not in them all - Equally 2 good ones can have a slightly different tonal character - But some are just 'dead'

To be fair, many builders, be it the small boutique builders, or the Fender Custom Shop team, they have analysed to the nth degree, what makes a good one so special - It is this process that allows them all to build some good 'replicas' - Even the finer detail, certainly regarding tone, can differ from one replica to another - I commented on FB the other day on a similar issue, that recently I received 4 new 64 C/Shop Strats - All good, but slight variation in the acoustic voice and plugged in voice - To the point that me and  a couple of customers played all 4 side by side and we did not pick the same one we'd buy 

I'm sure the likes of @IvisonGuitars and @Danielsguitars ; have analysed many good old 'uns' and indeed 'bad old 'uns' to see what magic they can take from them in order to build their own replica's

Are all replicas just as good to the ultimate nth degree - This is the bit that many may well say No - But the difference is now far more minimal, certainly taking into account, the price, the fact that you can change parts on a replica if required, insurance, care, upkeep, let alone the fear of buy a forgery within the vintage market - To the point now that many will own, gig, play, collect replicas 

The issue to a large degree with the vintage market is that the asking price reflects what the guitar is regarding condition, rarity, originality etc and not about how it feels, plays and sounds - ie a good old 'un and a bad old 'un, will have a similar asking price, assuming same condition etc 

I see your point, but I am just trying to understand that.

1 - not all vintage guitars are good.
2 - not all replicas are bad (or good either).

However, lets say....to use a number to measure.

If say a very good vintage guitar is 91/100 (for the sake of argument).  You can also get a CS that is 94/100.  Vice versa you can get a 95/100 vintage and 85/100 CS.

But I think it would be unfair to say that there is a vintage guitar that is 100/100 and no other modern guitars can be like that.  Purely because what is 100/100 for 1 person is only 95/100 for another.

The question i guess is how much influence and placebo the vintage element gets in your head when you play it and whether that is worth the money to you.

Often these topics are easier to discuss then write about - Partly as one discussion point quickly triggers another question/statement

I think it is fair to say that a bloomin' good replica can't be any better than a bloomin' good old 'un - A good replica can be better than a bad old un - But as you are ultimately trying to capture all the magic that is in a good old 'un then you can't build it any better - Change any features of an old 'un, to try and improve how it handles/performs and it is no longer a replica - That is partly why so many players favour 'players grade vintage models' 

Agree that what is perfection for one player is not perfection for another - That is why Joe Walsh sold his old LP as he did not like it as much as his other LP - J Page brought it and the rest is history - I recall buying a couple of guitars from a London 'dealer' about 30 years ago - Also in the corner was an old Lifton case - I asked what was in the case and was told it was a 59 LP - It turned out it belonged to Gary Moore and this 'dealer' was trying to handle the sale - GM had purchased it, as a back up for Greenie, for the Still Got The Blue Tour, but he wasn't getting on with it - I asked if I could have a look at it - 30 seconds later it was back in the case and I recall saying 'I can see why he is trying to sell it' 

Mike at ATB has sold, played more old guitars than I have - I've owned, played, sold some - Some have had the wow factor and some haven't - About a year ago I sold a 63 ES335 for @richardhomer - A very nice guitar and pretty much straight - I commented at the time to Richard and the buyer that it is a good guitar but IMO a good refret would enhance it no end - The buyer kept it for a few months, but later had a re-fret carried out by @SteveRobinson - I spoke to the customer a few weeks later about the refret and was it worth it - He said that yes the playing performance had moved on no end - Maybe slightly off topic, but I see no reason one Iota that a refret should have any impact on the value of an old guitar 

As for your final paragrapgh - The question i guess is how much influence and placebo the vintage element gets in your head when you play it and whether that is worth the money to you. - The easy bit is if you can afford it then you don't need to justify it- If you cant afford it then chances are you can't justify it - Equally if you can't tell any difference, then lucky for you, as you've just saved quite a bit of money - Someone said a few days ago in another OP, if  buying/trying a guitar makes you smile, then it must have something in it for you - You can see on that video how much Mike thought about that Strat

I would suggest to any potential 'vintage' buyer, that try a few, as they are not for everyone - Add to that, do your home work as at today's prices, there is scope for fraudulent models to exist side by side an original one - Either knowingly or by lack of knowledge, some private sellers and dealers will take advantage of your ignorance - And remember the illusion of knowledge is a powerful tool that some sellers will utilise