Fishman Ellipse Matrix or LR Baggs Anthem?

Lewy

JP Guitars has the Trinity Pro in stock and it's less than the cost of even the SL version of the Anthem plus a Pure Mini....

https://www.jp-guitars.co.uk/sales/pickups_and_amplification/kandk/pickup_and_mic_systems/trinity_pro_mini.htm

TimmyO

Don't the anthem mic and k&k transducers go in the same place? 

Lewy

TimmyO said:

Don't the anthem mic and k&k transducers go in the same place? 

Very good point!

Teyeplayer

TimmyO said:

Don't the anthem mic and k&k transducers go in the same place? 

Yes I’d wondered this. Could the k&k transducers be placed nearby and still have the same impact?

Lewy

Teyeplayer said:

TimmyO said:

Don't the anthem mic and k&k transducers go in the same place? 

Yes I’d wondered this. Could the k&k transducers be placed nearby and still have the same impact?

If you were going to move anything in that scenario, it would probably be better to be the Anthem mic as it's less sensitive to positioning than the K&K sensors (they really need to be in the right place to ensure a balanced sound). If it's anything like the Lyric (my understanding is it's actually the same mic, just dealt with differently in the preamp of each system) then it can be positioned behind the pins and also over to one side of the bridgeplate next to the X brace. It will sound different there, obviously....


https://images.app.goo.gl/sjfhdEiNmTU4eS36A

Andyjr1515

Lewy said:

Teyeplayer said:

TimmyO said:

Don't the anthem mic and k&k transducers go in the same place? 

Yes I’d wondered this. Could the k&k transducers be placed nearby and still have the same impact?

If you were going to move anything in that scenario, it would probably be better to be the Anthem mic as it's less sensitive to positioning than the K&K sensors (they really need to be in the right place to ensure a balanced sound). If it's anything like the Lyric (my understanding is it's actually the same mic, just dealt with differently in the preamp of each system) then it can be positioned behind the pins and also over to one side of the bridgeplate next to the X brace. It will sound different there, obviously....


https://images.app.goo.gl/sjfhdEiNmTU4eS36

Yes - agree with many of the comments above.  And yes - my preferred option is to put the Pure Mini directly under the saddle as recommended and put the Anthem mic the other side of the pegs.

Because the back is still off, I have the luxury of being able to position everything pretty accurately.


I've abandoned the idea of a blend between the piezo and Pure Mini - I'll probably just put a 'one or the other' switch in.


The bit most likely for me to have got wrong conceptually, is that I am making an assumption that the Pure Mini transducers will be closer electronically to the Anthem piezo element rather than the Anthem mic.  And I may be completely wrong about that.


The Anthem has arrived, by the way.  It looks a neat package... 

ToneControl

I'd recommend using an IR from a guitar body in your FX instead, less issues with feedback

I have a K+K trinity, but you can only raise the mic level up a bit

Lewy

This has potential to be really quite complicated in practical use - the K&K won't sound good through the same EQ as the piezo, so flicking the "either or" switch is going to have to be accompanied by tweaking everything. The K&K wants to see 500K-1 Meg input impedance to avoid excess bass frequencies - not so a piezo which will likely not sound good with that impedance so that's another thing to deal with....were you thinking of somehow tapping the K&K into the Anthem preamp? There'll be a big mismatch there I'd have thought?

Andyjr1515

Lewy said:

This has potential to be really quite complicated in practical use - the K&K won't sound good through the same EQ as the piezo, so flicking the "either or" switch is going to have to be accompanied by tweaking everything. The K&K wants to see 500K-1 Meg input impedance to avoid excess bass frequencies - not so a piezo which will likely not sound good with that impedance so that's another thing to deal with....were you thinking of somehow tapping the K&K into the Anthem preamp? There'll be a big mismatch there I'd have thought?

That's useful info.  The Pure Mini hasn't arrived yet and I'd missed the bit of the product manual on their website covering the very topic you mention...and in quite a bit of detail   Thanks for flagging.  In my ignorance, I had gambled that the electronic properties of that type of transducer might be similar to the piezo - clearly, they are completely different 

The simpler option (and probably most likely to give acceptable results) is, of course, to go for simply fitting both systems and having two jacks which would leave the option open running one or other or (for, say, studio work) for running a double cable out into two interface or amp channels, following @ToneControl 's comment above.  

It's ages before I have to commit - and I can use either system in other projects if I conclude the whole thing is just a really bad idea.   

crunchman

The simplest option is to go for a straightforward undersaddle piezo and use some digital trickery. The TC Bodyrez can make an undersaddle sound quite good.  If you want to spend a bit more there is all the Fishman Aura stuff.

ToneControl

crunchman said:

The simplest option is to go for a straightforward undersaddle piezo and use some digital trickery. The TC Bodyrez can make an undersaddle sound quite good.  If you want to spend a bit more there is all the Fishman Aura stuff.

nicer to use an under bridgeplate sensor though to not disturb the bridge?

Also, K+K pure mini has no wires flapping around to batteries, just one short one to the socket
I had guitars being spoiled by wires rattling against the sides

you can still add IR to the sensor output, and it sounds less piezo-y

crunchman

ToneControl said:

crunchman said:

The simplest option is to go for a straightforward undersaddle piezo and use some digital trickery. The TC Bodyrez can make an undersaddle sound quite good.  If you want to spend a bit more there is all the Fishman Aura stuff.

nicer to use an under bridgeplate sensor though to not disturb the bridge?

Also, K+K pure mini has no wires flapping around to batteries, just one short one to the socket
I had guitars being spoiled by wires rattling against the sides

you can still add IR to the sensor output, and it sounds less piezo-y

You can get undersaddles without an internal battery.  I've got an old Headway undersaddle in one guitar (probably been in there for 20 years or more).  That doesn't have any internal stuff other than the pickup and a wire to the jack socket.  It has an external preamp that you can put on your belt, or the guitar strap.  These days you could replace the preamp with something that has all the digital trickery.

A lot of those digital things seemed to have been designed around input from an undersaddle, and seem to work best with them.

Funkfingers

ToneControl said:

nicer to use an under bridge plate sensor though to not disturb the bridge?

This is why I abandoned a Baggs Anthem SL system in favour of the Lyric mic only. I understand the simplicity of an under-saddle piezo transducer but I did not like the way it detracted from the basic acoustic sound of the host instrument. 

I have two acoustic guitars, each with an L.R. Baggs Lyric. Each of them sounds like what it is. The posh fingerpicking guitar sounds posh. The mid-price, solid top, laminated back and sides guitar sounds kinda soft around the edges.

IMO, the simple and obvious way to get your idea of suitable EQ to any venue sound engineers is to run a pre-amp/pedal device between your guitar and the balanced XLR signal feed. Tommy Emmanuel runs an AER combo for his onstage sound. He entrusts the D.I. signal to the house sound crew.

Andyjr1515

Just an update on this if it is of interest to anyone - and once I can get someone to be able to better my arthritic fingers' attempts I'll get some sound clips posted!
 In the end I did indeed go for the L.R.Baggs Anthem system AND the K&K Pure Mini feeding two outputs:

This is how the two systems look installed.  I put the three Pure Mini transducers in the recommended precise positions on the bridge plate directly under the saddle and also took advantage of the modest leeway suggested in the Anthem technical information on alternative positioning of the condenser mic:

From the soundhole point of view, it's a bit of a 1990's hearing aid look, but relatively discreet and convenient to use:

I haven't tried all of the permutations and combinations yet, but already have come to a number of conclusions - some that surprised me:

 *  No surprise based on many of the above views - the Pure Mini has a very natural sound.  Especially through my electric guitar amp (which is a very pleasant surprise).

*  I was quite surprised just how loud it is, though.  Through both electric guitar and mini PA, it is louder than the 'out of the box' settings for the LR Baggs

*  Also reflecting the wisdom expressed by some of you folks above, the Anthem system is indeed, very flexible and some very nice sounds coming out of it.  The piezo seems relatively un-piezo sounding and there are some nice blend settings on both amps

* A surprise, though.  While I haven't tried it yet through the big PA, on my mini system the Pure Mini (direct into the amp and not through a DI box) retained its treble, while the Anthem dropped to the more familiar 'PA muddy' tones.  I was expecting it to be the other way round.  Nevertheless, the Anthem - with a few blend tweaks - was still not as muddy as some...

* Overall conclusion - for what I was looking for, ie, a competent sound through various audio systems and usable in live and studio work, this combination bodes well: giving Matt (the prospective owner) the ability to choose between either system to best suit the venue and equipment or using both together.  Plugging both systems through my mini PA gave me a sound as close to mic'd acoustic as I have ever achieved in the past 



I'll get someone to do some proper demo audio files as soon as I can. 

Bidley

For what it's worth, the best acoustic sound I've had live (with both guitar and mandolin) was K&K pickups into a Helix with IRs. Bit of EQ needed here and there, but easy to duplicate week in week out.

Andyjr1515

I'll get Matt to do some properly recorded comparative videos at some stage, but here are a couple of quick mobile-phone clips of him playing the dreadnought 'straight out of the box' through his little Laney 2-Ch amp.  I think he is mixing the Pure Mini and LR Baggs in both examples:
https://youtu.be/-Bckzvnup7I

https://youtu.be/4qQ9iHK22IE

preston61

Bidley said:

For what it's worth, the best acoustic sound I've had live (with both guitar and mandolin) was K&K pickups into a Helix with IRs. Bit of EQ needed here and there, but easy to duplicate week in week out.

What settings/IR's did you use on the Helix? I tried to get something I liked out of it with a K&K Mini Pickup through a Helix LT and ended up going back to just using a LR Baggs Anthem because I couldn't get anything I liked from the LT. I used the Sigma3 IR's, but from what I understand they are designed for Piezo style pickups which the Mini isn't, and I personally couldn't find one that I thought was better than some general Eq'ing