These increasingly common "disposable" amps...

TimmyO

This subject seemed to first emerge (that i saw anyway) in discussions around repair (or not as it turned out) of a Roland Blues Cube and the conclusion seemed to be that Roland's policy was that they don't make spares or tech info available for out of warranty repairs, making the amps effectively disposable. 

The same seemed to be the case with the Katana and perhaps now with the new Fender amp range too.

1. Is this indeed the case?

2. If it is, should we expect reviewers and even retailers to be making this better known? 

HAL9000

I remember the thread about the Blues Cube and, at the time, it would certainly have put me off of buying one. However, there was also a later thread on here where Boss/Roland replaced someone's amp despite it being outside of the warranty period. It seems that either Roland/Boss have upped their game, or are inconsistent in the way they deal with out of warranty issues.

ICBM

Yes, although it's the case with most electronics now, hence the RoHS and WEEE directives. Very little outside the world of musical instrument amps and high-end hi-fi is expected to last more than about ten years, and not to be repairable economically or at all - not least because it's almost always obsolete.

A more useful goal in many ways, which has been achieved decades ago by some manufacturers, is simply to make the failure rate so low that it doesn't really matter - and even then, obsolescence is the bigger issue. Most old solid-state amps from the  80s and 90s still work fine, but not many people want to use them now...

TimmyO

HAL9000 said:

I remember the thread about the Blues Cube and, at the time, it would certainly have put me off of buying one. However, there was also a later thread on here where Boss/Roland replaced someone's amp despite it being outside of the warranty period. It seems that either Roland/Boss have upped their game, or are inconsistent in the way they deal with out of warranty issues.

I had been out trying amps and was leaning toward a BC - it stopped me in my tracks tbh 

TimmyO

ICBM said:

Yes, although it's the case with most electronics now, hence the RoHS and WEEE directives. Very little outside the world of musical instrument amps and high-end hi-fi is expected to last more than about ten years, and not to be repairable economically or at all - not least because it's almost always obsolete.

A more useful goal in many ways, which has been achieved decades ago by some manufacturers, is simply to make the failure rate so low that it doesn't really matter - and even then, obsolescence is the bigger issue. Most old solid-state amps from the  80s and 90s still work fine, but not many people want to use them now...

aye that's a good point - it seems to be a shift in this particular market though 

midlifecrisis

My Katana, bought used and out of warranty was collected and repaired by boss/roland free of charge. dont know if i was exceptionally lucky or if was there standard customer service if asked nicely. whereas my laney cub with a supposedly 5 year warranty laney hid behind saying it wasnt registered on there site and wouldnt fix it without charge.

YellowLedBetterMan

ICBM said:

Most old solid-state amps from the  80s and 90s still work fine, but not many people want to use them now...

Which I think is a crying shame. If you were to give me an old Peavey amps, say a Bandit, from the 70s or 80s and one of the newer Fender Mustang amps or a Peavey Vypyr and ask me which I'd rather have based on not only sound quality but also how much time I'd have with them before they died, I'd take the Bandit in a heartbeat.

ICBM

YellowLedBetterMan said:

Which I think is a crying shame. If you were to give me an old Peavey amps, say a Bandit, from the 70s or 80s and one of the newer Fender Mustang amps or a Peavey Vypyr and ask me which I'd rather have based on not only sound quality but also how much time I'd have with them before they died, I'd take the Bandit in a heartbeat.

Completely agree. But a lot of people don't seem to be able to see past the "sounds like a [insert classic valve amp name]" modelling claims. To me, the inherent *tone* quality is simply better from the old analogue solid-state amps, even if they don't sound *like* valve amps. It's not just Peavey either, there are quite a few other brands with similar build quality and low failure rates, but pretty much all of them are bargain-bin prices now.

merlin

@ICBM have you ever had experience of a Johnson Millenium? I'm curious if you have as to what your take is on them...

Sassafras

Modern times.
The disposable culture.
Everyone wants the latest 'thing'.

ICBM

merlin said:

@ICBM have you ever had experience of a Johnson Millenium? I'm curious if you have as to what your take is on them...

I saw one in a shop once! Other than that, no... sorry.

Modulus_Amps

This does not only effect amps, pedals are far down the route too. Any product that uses SMT (Surface mount technology) is likely to be difficult to fix except for the most dedicated of techs

darthed1981

It's the economics of the modern world, that's just electronics these days.  Be good if they could standardise a bit to reduce waste, might become a legal requirement soon enough.

Is there a single amp on the market in the sub £300 praccy amp space that would be completely repairable indefinitely?

rivercider

Would there be any legs in this as an idea  - for those who appear to have good levels of knowledge and experience in this field (I note that ICBM gets asked amp questions quite often), would they be prepared to put up a short list on fb somewhere that others could refer to, ie reliable amps recommended to fb users, that sort of thing?

For my limited knowledge, even a top 2 or 3 suggestions per category would be helpful, so for small tube combos, maybe the Yerasov, the Pro Jr, perhaps, depending on cost and people experience of them for reliability /value.

This may be useful and help guide newcomers or players like me who aren't too experienced, but I'm not sure if the forum gives space for such a thing or indeed if any individuals are prepared to create the necessary threads.  Apologies if such things already exist beyond the random threads that already exist.

HAL9000

rivercider said:

Would there be any legs in this as an idea  - for those who appear to have good levels of knowledge and experience in this field (I note that ICBM gets asked amp questions quite often), would they be prepared to put up a short list on fb somewhere that others could refer to, ie reliable amps recommended to fb users, that sort of thing?

For my limited knowledge, even a top 2 or 3 suggestions per category would be helpful, so for small tube combos, maybe the Yerasov, the Pro Jr, perhaps, depending on cost and people experience of them for reliability /value.

This may be useful and help guide newcomers or players like me who aren't too experienced, but I'm not sure if the forum gives space for such a thing or indeed if any individuals are prepared to create the necessary threads.  Apologies if such things already exist beyond the random threads that already exist.

My two pen’orth is that there are actually very few modern goods (be they amps, cars, TVs, or whatever) these days that are downright unreliable. With the advent of social media, anything inherently unreliable would soon be called out. We tend to buy things based on other factors that won’t be the same for everybody. For instance I like amps that are simple, but you might like amps with lots of things to adjust. I like clean sounds, but you might like insane amounts of distortion. Nice idea but I don’t think that a list where reliability is the top criterion is particularly useful for most  people people here. Sorry.

RustySpanner

That's a great idea. 

I'm not a gear head, but it's time for a new amp and a quick note of what experienced professionals find reliable and well designed at various price/volume/weight points would be very helpful indeed. 

I'm tempted by a modern, lightweight, loudish solid state amp, but really can't afford to waste cash on something poorly built, badly designed or fiddly to use.  I can decide if I like the tone myself, but the other factors are a bit intangible without inside knowledge. 

I'd love to know how an experienced amp tech would rate the Orange Crush, Peavy, Vox and other affordable solid state amps for design and quality. 
I can find decent (but different) tones in all of them, what I don't know is how they rate on longevity and how much care the design and manufacturers took when speccing and building them. 

I like nicely built things that last - looks or fashion don't really come into it. 

Thanks for listening. 
  

impmann

There is also another 'thing' here...

The reason a lot of manufacturers won't give out schematics/repair info is because there is a danger of being sued for damages or even death. To explain:

Person A reads on the internet that repairing his amplifier is dead easy, all he has to do is solder in part 'y'. Look up the schematic on line on their website, order the part from their part store and blob it in.
So he does so, and fits it wrongly.
The amp blows up.
Because Person A has read loads of stuff on the internet, he's wired his own house too - and the wiring has the wrong fuses etc. So when the amp blows up, the resulting fire burns down his house and the small child sleeping in the upstairs bedroom dies.

So who is at fault? Clearly (using common sense) its Person A for being a dick. BUT... Person A stars claiming that the part supplied was at fault, and that the schematic should have stated categorically that if installed wrongly there could be a fire. So they instruct lawyers to sue the amp manufacturer... whether or not they win is almost irrelevant because the costs spiral, the bad publicity hurts the brand and the amp manufacturer's business is damaged... possibly terminally. 

All for a free schematic and an inexpensive part... 

Wouldn't happen? Well, its happening. The companies I've worked for (and work for) will not supply parts to non-qualified techs (by that I mean members of the general public - you need to be a proper tech), and likewise the schematics - not because of anything other than a genuine concern about safety. 

Winny_Pooh

@RustySpanner I think you'll find the cost of repair for most amps under £300 relativity high vs the purchase price. 
Most modern loud SS amps that are light will never be as easy to work on a a simple valve amp built on a turret or eyelet board. 

grungebob

There was a discussion buried in the EU ecodesign consultations about making equipment more user serviceable and for manufacturers to provide parts and manuals. 
Dont know how far it’s reach was though. 

p90fool

grungebob said:

There was a discussion buried in the EU ecodesign consultations about making equipment more user serviceable and for manufacturers to provide parts and manuals. 
Dont know how far it’s reach was though. 

I think this is only a part of the equation though. The other significant reason goods don't get repaired is simply lack of resale value.

When you can pick up good used Katanas for around £100 not many people will bother driving a broken one over to a tech three towns away and waiting a month for it to be fixed, no matter how many spares are available. 

TimmyO

p90fool said:

grungebob said:

There was a discussion buried in the EU ecodesign consultations about making equipment more user serviceable and for manufacturers to provide parts and manuals. 
Dont know how far it’s reach was though. 

I think this is only a part of the equation though. The other significant reason goods don't get repaired is simply lack of resale value.

When you can pick up good used Katanas for around £100 not many people will bother driving a broken one over to a tech three towns away and waiting a month for it to be fixed, no matter how many spares are available. 

Perhaps if they weren't thought of as unsupported they wouldn't be £100 used