These increasingly common "disposable" amps...

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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 7273
    impmann said:
    There is also another 'thing' here...

    The reason a lot of manufacturers won't give out schematics/repair info is because there is a danger of being sued for damages or even death. To explain:

    Person A reads on the internet that repairing his amplifier is dead easy, all he has to do is solder in part 'y'. Look up the schematic on line on their website, order the part from their part store and blob it in.
    So he does so, and fits it wrongly.
    The amp blows up.
    Because Person A has read loads of stuff on the internet, he's wired his own house too - and the wiring has the wrong fuses etc. So when the amp blows up, the resulting fire burns down his house and the small child sleeping in the upstairs bedroom dies.

    So who is at fault? Clearly (using common sense) its Person A for being a dick. BUT... Person A stars claiming that the part supplied was at fault, and that the schematic should have stated categorically that if installed wrongly there could be a fire. So they instruct lawyers to sue the amp manufacturer... whether or not they win is almost irrelevant because the costs spiral, the bad publicity hurts the brand and the amp manufacturer's business is damaged... possibly terminally. 

    All for a free schematic and an inexpensive part... 

    Wouldn't happen? Well, its happening. The companies I've worked for (and work for) will not supply parts to non-qualified techs (by that I mean members of the general public - you need to be a proper tech), and likewise the schematics - not because of anything other than a genuine concern about safety. 
    Weed out idiots by dsitributing the schematics in the form of a cover of the "dem bones" song.

    ie/ the 1k resistors connected to the PNP transistor
    the PNP transistors connected to the 1M resistor
    the 1M resistors connected to the ecc82 preamp valve 
    if the ecc83 preamp's connected to yourr eyelids 
    you'll soon be skeletal bones
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 31368
    TimmyO said:
    p90fool said:
    grungebob said:
    There was a discussion buried in the EU ecodesign consultations about making equipment more user serviceable and for manufacturers to provide parts and manuals. 
    Dont know how far it’s reach was though. 
    I think this is only a part of the equation though. The other significant reason goods don't get repaired is simply lack of resale value.

    When you can pick up good used Katanas for around £100 not many people will bother driving a broken one over to a tech three towns away and waiting a month for it to be fixed, no matter how many spares are available. 
    Perhaps if they weren't thought of as unsupported they wouldn't be £100 used 
    You're partially right I think, is is a bit chicken and egg, though I don't think most punters consider that very much, any more than they do with phones or TVs.
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  • jpfampsjpfamps Frets: 2723

    We can get tech support and parts from BOSS / Roland, and frequently repair SMD gear to the component level.

    In the past BOSS / Roland would give support and sell parts to anyone, however you now have to be an approved repair centre, which we are.

    The main problem is usually not that we can't fix it but that it will cost more to fix than the device is worth, which makes the repair pointless. I have two Cube amps in the work shop that fall into this category.

    Regarding reliability, a major cause of failure is use of the incorrect power supply (that's the case with both these amps), and this seems unlikely to change in the future.
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  • BeexterBeexter Frets: 597
    Would there be any legs in this as an idea  - for those who appear to have good levels of knowledge and experience in this field (I note that ICBM gets asked amp questions quite often), would they be prepared to put up a short list on fb somewhere that others could refer to, ie reliable amps recommended to fb users, that sort of thing?

    For my limited knowledge, even a top 2 or 3 suggestions per category would be helpful, so for small tube combos, maybe the Yerasov, the Pro Jr, perhaps, depending on cost and people experience of them for reliability /value.

    This may be useful and help guide newcomers or players like me who aren't too experienced, but I'm not sure if the forum gives space for such a thing or indeed if any individuals are prepared to create the necessary threads.  Apologies if such things already exist beyond the random threads that already exist.
    I like this idea. Build quality is an important factor for me so it is really helpful when fellow forum members help identify well designed/ constructed amps and conversely, point out the lemons. 
    Sound/ tone is of course, subjective but knowing that something is built well or not is useful, particularly if there is a propensity to fail due to poor design, components or manufacture.
    There's whole websites and surveys devoted to the reliability of cars so it's a big undertaking but I'm sure it would be appreciated 
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  • HenrytwangHenrytwang Frets: 470
    ICBM said:
    YellowLedBetterMan said:

    Which I think is a crying shame. If you were to give me an old Peavey amps, say a Bandit, from the 70s or 80s and one of the newer Fender Mustang amps or a Peavey Vypyr and ask me which I'd rather have based on not only sound quality but also how much time I'd have with them before they died, I'd take the Bandit in a heartbeat.
    Completely agree. But a lot of people don't seem to be able to see past the "sounds like a [insert classic valve amp name]" modelling claims. To me, the inherent *tone* quality is simply better from the old analogue solid-state amps, even if they don't sound *like* valve amps. It's not just Peavey either, there are quite a few other brands with similar build quality and low failure rates, but pretty much all of them are bargain-bin prices now.
    I’ve got a Peavey Studio Pro 40 which I both new over 20 years ago and a Bandit 65 which cosy me £5 at a car boot sale. Both are excellent little amps and have been trouble free. They produce great clean tones and have nice reverb tanks , if you want dirt you just add a good pedal.
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  • riverciderrivercider Frets: 461
    I think it occurred to me after I read in a thread or two here about the Blues Junior having some inherent design issues that have been known to cause overheating and even fires. I wouldn't want to get anyone into trouble over this by mentioning names, obviously, but at the same time it's the sort of info that (had I known it a few months ago) might have swayed me towards a different model rather than the BJr that I did buy.
    Besides, I don't imagine it's going to cause anyone any legal problems if their opinion is largely anecdotal, after all that's the sort of chatter that guitar and gear forums are full of.

    But if there was maybe a 'noob' listing for top 5 suggested amps below 500, then below 1000, etc, where people could research stuff based on wiser forum members' experiences, it may be seen as less likely to be biased or agenda-based than some of the online & YouTube reviews /advertorials.

    The alternative (which I spend countless hours doing, rather stupidly) for buyers is to study forums for weeks or months to glean info on the stuff they're looking to buy.  Often its hard even then to determine what qualifies a poster, ie have they worked on amps for 30 years or are they a 14 year old playing around with a soldering iron. 
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  • HAL9000HAL9000 Frets: 9552
    I think it occurred to me after I read in a thread or two here about the Blues Junior having some inherent design issues that have been known to cause overheating and even fires. I wouldn't want to get anyone into trouble over this by mentioning names, obviously, but at the same time it's the sort of info that (had I known it a few months ago) might have swayed me towards a different model rather than the BJr that I did buy.
    Besides, I don't imagine it's going to cause anyone any legal problems if their opinion is largely anecdotal, after all that's the sort of chatter that guitar and gear forums are full of.

    But if there was maybe a 'noob' listing for top 5 suggested amps below 500, then below 1000, etc, where people could research stuff based on wiser forum members' experiences, it may be seen as less likely to be biased or agenda-based than some of the online & YouTube reviews /advertorials.

    The alternative (which I spend countless hours doing, rather stupidly) for buyers is to study forums for weeks or months to glean info on the stuff they're looking to buy.  Often its hard even then to determine what qualifies a poster, ie have they worked on amps for 30 years or are they a 14 year old playing around with a soldering iron. 
    Like it. Better idea IMHO than a list based essentially on reliability. Still somewhat subjective as different people want different things. Also, who creates the list? And when? I’ve bought any number of amps which I waxed lyrical about during the honeymoon period, only to realise their shortcomings rather later on. 
    I play guitar because I enjoy it rather than because I’m any good at it
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  • TimmyOTimmyO Frets: 7350
    To be fair there are MANY good reasons to not buy a blues jr before we even get to safety and reliability 
    Red ones are better. 
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  • riverciderrivercider Frets: 461
    TimmyO said:
    To be fair there are MANY good reasons to not buy a blues jr before we even get to safety and reliability 
    Exactly my point - if we could somehow condense the wisdom of those who know (or at least claim to!) it may stop someone who doesn't, from buying gear they later regret or have real issues with, beyond buyer's remorse.
    I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel - gear forums are chock full of this info - but my feeling is that there are some posters here who are far better placed to assess and offer opinion on certain things than the bulk of us. 
    Me, I'm a bit of a guitar tourist, I mean I love the instrument, sure, but I don't ever gig and so I have different needs to many here....but I still don't want to buy shit gear  ;)  

    If we could just distill the key knowledge into some sticky threads.....which could even be vote-based, if subjectivity bothers some, but which could at least give a starting point.....I don't know really the best way to do this, but it's an age-old idea that this forum may benefit from if we could somehow get it together. 
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  • JezWyndJezWynd Frets: 6021
    TimmyO said:
    To be fair there are MANY good reasons to not buy a blues jr before we even get to safety and reliability 
    Exactly my point - if we could somehow condense the wisdom of those who know (or at least claim to!) it may stop someone who doesn't, from buying gear they later regret or have real issues with, beyond buyer's remorse.
    I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel - gear forums are chock full of this info - but my feeling is that there are some posters here who are far better placed to assess and offer opinion on certain things than the bulk of us. 
    Me, I'm a bit of a guitar tourist, I mean I love the instrument, sure, but I don't ever gig and so I have different needs to many here....but I still don't want to buy shit gear  ;)  

    If we could just distill the key knowledge into some sticky threads.....which could even be vote-based, if subjectivity bothers some, but which could at least give a starting point.....I don't know really the best way to do this, but it's an age-old idea that this forum may benefit from if we could somehow get it together. 
    Not sure the forum mods could cope with all the gear being sent to them gratis by amp manufacturers keen to make the list. 
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 31368
    Although I have some pretty strong like and dislikes in terms of gear, I'm not comfortable with a stickied list of gear to avoid.

    It's not really fair on manufacturers or retailers who may be already working on ironing out glitches, especially as the return rate on faulty goods is pretty tiny on even the least reliable gear these days. 

    I'm happy enough to ask for people's experiences on here before I buy stuff, that way you at least get a balanced view. 

    I've had much-vaunted products from Boss and Atomic die on me in the last year but although I'm happy to share my experiences they should be seen in a much wider context of generally happy customers. 

    Although I have just ordered an EHX C9, so wish me luck!
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  • GrumpyrockerGrumpyrocker Frets: 4118
    p90fool said:
    Although I have some pretty strong like and dislikes in terms of gear, I'm not comfortable with a stickied list of gear to avoid.

    It's not really fair on manufacturers or retailers who may be already working on ironing out glitches, especially as the return rate on faulty goods is pretty tiny on even the least reliable gear these days. 

    I'm happy enough to ask for people's experiences on here before I buy stuff, that way you at least get a balanced view. 

    I've had much-vaunted products from Boss and Atomic die on me in the last year but although I'm happy to share my experiences they should be seen in a much wider context of generally happy customers. 

    Although I have just ordered an EHX C9, so wish me luck!
    I endorse this message.

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  • jpfampsjpfamps Frets: 2723

    As a general rule really try to avoid making negative comments about gear made by small manufacturers (or indeed the work of other amp repairers).

    Firstly, I feel this represents a major conflict of interests.

    Secondly, I want the success (or not) of my business to be based on the work we do rather than by trashing other people's work.

    Thirdly, I wouldn't want people to put negative things on the internet about my work / business, especially without trying to resolve the issue directly with me first.

    Having said that, I don't have any qualms about pointing out problems with gear from the larger manufacturers, eg Fender, Marshall etc, not only will their businesses survive my criticism (and they employ people to manage their internet profile), they shouldn't really be making the mistakes they have, eg TSL100 etc.
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  • riverciderrivercider Frets: 461
    jpfamps said:

    As a general rule really try to avoid making negative comments about gear made by small manufacturers (or indeed the work of other amp repairers).

    Firstly, I feel this represents a major conflict of interests.

    Secondly, I want the success (or not) of my business to be based on the work we do rather than by trashing other people's work.

    Thirdly, I wouldn't want people to put negative things on the internet about my work / business, especially without trying to resolve the issue directly with me first.

    Having said that, I don't have any qualms about pointing out problems with gear from the larger manufacturers, eg Fender, Marshall etc, not only will their businesses survive my criticism (and they employ people to manage their internet profile), they shouldn't really be making the mistakes they have, eg TSL100 etc.
    Yes, I do agree with this; I understand the risk of it descending into a bitchfest, but the intention wouldn't be to unnecessarily slag gear off, rather to endorse stuff that you know to be well built and/or designed, reliable etc, as a starting point for the uneducated amongst us. That might well generate more business for hardworking people like you with smaller businesses that I may not have known about when buying the typical big name brand.

    Here it becomes difficult (potentially) to separate endorsement of gear from self-promotion, hence a group approach based on various posters' opinions and perhaps some kind of vote/count based thing.  I don't know - I've never done this before, just was thinking aloud really. 

    Maybe Fender and Gibson (for example) are both big enough boys to take it on the chin (Gibson have had to for years, let's be honest, although that's guitars rather than amps so somewhat different to where we began this conversation) but as you say, that shouldn't excuse them for fundamental design flaws that go uncorrected.

    If true, the Blues Junior pcb issue that's been written about on this forum and stretches over several revisions of that model seems pretty poor and at least worthy of mention to warn prospective buyers about.

    If indeed it is one of the best selling small combos in the world, as is commonly stated - shouldn't there have been some effort to eradicate that issue?

    On a car, or a tumble dryer, for instance, there would have been product recall mania if something were prone to burning out or catching fire, even moderately often.  

    Maybe it's not very sporting to name and shame stuff like this, that's not really where I was going with the whole thing, but that point about the Blues Junior did prompt me to think that a short list of things that fb members like and know to be generally free from such issues might be handy (and more in the spirit of the forum!).   
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357

    One thing to bear in mind is essentially there are 3 classes of amp, valve, Linear solidstate and class D solid state. 

    Almost everything I get to fix (apart from the odd Peavey Bandit or similar) is class D and I have to say the reliability is depressing. There are some amps where the caps in the SMPS won't last as long as your average EL34 or similar in terms of working hours. People think these new designs of class D digital amps are going to be more trust worthy for gigging than an old valve design and in some cases they are completely wrong ..... these newer amps are going to go wrong because everything is stressed to death and put in a package that's way too small. I have 3 mini bass heads in at the mo, A TC electronic, an Ashdown and a Mark Bass head. All class D, all not very old and all faulty. 
    I've done the Ashdown, faulty fan circuit but hopes aren't high for the other 2. There's a 50 % chance changing the caps, the switching transistor and the pulse width controller chip might be enough but you can go down a real rabbit hole with these designs. Because the design is essentially rectifying direct mains a fault in one component can cascade into disaster way before the fuse blows  or even the MOV  responds  I've spent weeks on some HK power amps before. 

    So basically modern super efficiency, lightness  and cheapness (no big linear transformers etc) comes with the downside of more complexity and in my experience a shorter working life. Be careful what you buy, especially used and don't think playing a used Katana or similar amp for an hour in someones living room means you have thoroughly tested it  ...... modern BGA design means modern guitar amps can now suffer the same kind of under chip faults you see on laptops and phones. Fine one moment but move it and it can go wrong in an instant. 

    So bit of a minefield really all round
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • fields5069fields5069 Frets: 3826
    I wonder if something like an Orange CR60 would also be seen as "disposable"? I'm led to believe that there is no jiggery-pokery going on, apart from maybe some filtering, so it's "just" transistors in a valve amp-ish circuit.
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  • MattBansheeMattBanshee Frets: 1498
    Danny1969 said:

    One thing to bear in mind is essentially there are 3 classes of amp, valve, Linear solidstate and class D solid state. 

    Almost everything I get to fix (apart from the odd Peavey Bandit or similar) is class D and I have to say the reliability is depressing. There are some amps where the caps in the SMPS won't last as long as your average EL34 or similar in terms of working hours. People think these new designs of class D digital amps are going to be more trust worthy for gigging than an old valve design and in some cases they are completely wrong ..... these newer amps are going to go wrong because everything is stressed to death and put in a package that's way too small. I have 3 mini bass heads in at the mo, A TC electronic, an Ashdown and a Mark Bass head. All class D, all not very old and all faulty. 
    I've done the Ashdown, faulty fan circuit but hopes aren't high for the other 2. There's a 50 % chance changing the caps, the switching transistor and the pulse width controller chip might be enough but you can go down a real rabbit hole with these designs. Because the design is essentially rectifying direct mains a fault in one component can cascade into disaster way before the fuse blows  or even the MOV  responds  I've spent weeks on some HK power amps before. 

    So basically modern super efficiency, lightness  and cheapness (no big linear transformers etc) comes with the downside of more complexity and in my experience a shorter working life. Be careful what you buy, especially used and don't think playing a used Katana or similar amp for an hour in someones living room means you have thoroughly tested it  ...... modern BGA design means modern guitar amps can now suffer the same kind of under chip faults you see on laptops and phones. Fine one moment but move it and it can go wrong in an instant. 

    So bit of a minefield really all round
    Ashdown Little Giant with a faulty fan? I had one, it lasted 45 minutes before packing up and being returned.
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 7273
    Danny1969 said:

    One thing to bear in mind is essentially there are 3 classes of amp, valve, Linear solidstate and class D solid state. 

    Almost everything I get to fix (apart from the odd Peavey Bandit or similar) is class D and I have to say the reliability is depressing. There are some amps where the caps in the SMPS won't last as long as your average EL34 or similar in terms of working hours. People think these new designs of class D digital amps are going to be more trust worthy for gigging than an old valve design and in some cases they are completely wrong ..... these newer amps are going to go wrong because everything is stressed to death and put in a package that's way too small. I have 3 mini bass heads in at the mo, A TC electronic, an Ashdown and a Mark Bass head. All class D, all not very old and all faulty. 
    I've done the Ashdown, faulty fan circuit but hopes aren't high for the other 2. There's a 50 % chance changing the caps, the switching transistor and the pulse width controller chip might be enough but you can go down a real rabbit hole with these designs. Because the design is essentially rectifying direct mains a fault in one component can cascade into disaster way before the fuse blows  or even the MOV  responds  I've spent weeks on some HK power amps before. 

    So basically modern super efficiency, lightness  and cheapness (no big linear transformers etc) comes with the downside of more complexity and in my experience a shorter working life. Be careful what you buy, especially used and don't think playing a used Katana or similar amp for an hour in someones living room means you have thoroughly tested it  ...... modern BGA design means modern guitar amps can now suffer the same kind of under chip faults you see on laptops and phones. Fine one moment but move it and it can go wrong in an instant. 

    So bit of a minefield really all round
    Wonder if amps will start telling you their operating hours in the future...a bit like how some DSLRs will tell you shutter count etc.
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  • YellowLedBetterManYellowLedBetterMan Frets: 1185
    edited July 2019
    I think @rivercider 's idea is a smart one.

    It would sure help both me and @ICBM out at the minute - me for knowing what to look for and it'd help him to not be pestered by me every 10 minutes.

    I'm sure it would also be very useful to cut down on the threads we see all day every day about "what XYZ should I buy for £XYZ" or similar (which, lets's be honest, more than some of us have been guilty of)
    Just so people are aware. I have no idea what any of these words mean.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    I wonder if something like an Orange CR60 would also be seen as "disposable"? I'm led to believe that there is no jiggery-pokery going on, apart from maybe some filtering, so it's "just" transistors in a valve amp-ish circuit.
    It's almost all IC, including the power module. That's not too bad, since the ICs are pretty standard types, but it's not impossible that one day they could be unavailable - the power ones especially. Even some older discrete transistors are hard to get equivalents for now, although it's always possible to adapt the circuit for newer types, with a bit of knowledge - the problem is the labour time involved.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

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