Writing - Lyrics V Instrumental

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Creed_ClicksCreed_Clicks Frets: 1385
I never was a lyrics man. I can come up with riffs and melodies on the guitar for days, but always found writing lyrics difficult, so much so that I have a lot of unfinished music recorded, and left there.
I can hum vocal melodies etc which I think would fit, but trying to write "good" lyrics is not easy.
I am thinking of just replacing the "hummed vocals" with an instrument, so hey presto, some of my stuff becomes instrumental. It would be a sense of achievement getting stuff done and I'd be able to move on.
In theory, anything I play on a guitar could have a vocal over it. Whether it needs or not is another thing.
Anyone else caught between two stools?

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  • DoodlegameDoodlegame Frets: 28
    For sure man, I have some instrumental super stupid theory kinda stuff, but also riffs and songs like you, many of these wouldn't work with being turned into a instrumental, lot of polyrhythmic metal riffs I write but if they work in the format you're writing in, go for it!  A even if it is for personal progress, try setting out with the intention to write instrumental music.  Put a sitar in there, bassoons, violas whatever, try to step outside what you'd normally do and develop as a musician I guess!
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  • ewalewal Frets: 2558
    Old thread I know, but I'm shit at lyrics so have stuck to instrumental music for the last few years. While I like the instrumentals I've done (mostly), I now I feel I would like to improve my lyric writing and put together a few actual proper songs.

    I wonder if I could get away with recording a melody with sounds that approximate to words. then translating it in to something. Most of the time you can't really hear what words are being sung anyway!
    The Scrambler-EE Walk soundcloud experience
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  • TanninTannin Frets: 5268
    I used to come up with plenty of lyrics and no so much music. But that was years ago. These days, I'm only writing music and I'm not even trying to write lyrics top go with it (though most of it would work best with vocals over it).

    It's an age thing (at least for me) I no longer feel I have stuff that absolutely positively needs to be said (even if no-one ever hears the words anyway) but I haven't quite got to the point of letting go of the old singer-songwriter ethic completely and being happy just writing nonsense words that sound right and seem to give an impression of something. I'll do that one day, when I'm ready for it. 

    But that last is the key, I reckon @ewal - stop worrying about making sense, just fool around a bit and decide that you want an "ooo" sound at the end of the third bar ('coz that's what feels right when you sing it) and an "ah" sound on the next line. Probably, most of what you come up with will be actual English words, but if the sentences don't make sense - who cares?

    (That's where I'm heading, anyway. But not this week and probably not this year.)
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  • TheBigDipperTheBigDipper Frets: 4722
    ewal said:
    Old thread I know, but I'm shit at lyrics so have stuck to instrumental music for the last few years. While I like the instrumentals I've done (mostly), I now I feel I would like to improve my lyric writing and put together a few actual proper songs.

    I wonder if I could get away with recording a melody with sounds that approximate to words. then translating it in to something. Most of the time you can't really hear what words are being sung anyway!
    Of course you can! That's how the lyrics get written in some bands - first you get a melody down and the phrasing that suits the music. Then find some words that deliver the same effect - and hopefully with some meaning, but so what if you don't? Nonsense words sung by humans can evoke an emotional response and sound great.

    Not all songs need to make sense or have lyrics that tell a story. Some songs only make sense to the singer. But the delivery has an emotional response in the listener. 

    As an example, may I suggest the Yessongs live recording of Siberian Khatru. No idea what it's about. Totally love it. 
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  • ewalewal Frets: 2558
    The song I'm writing at the moment is about the passage of time, how some memories stay with you and always feel present, with moments of realisation that they're actually from decades ago. Whereas much more recent memories can fade almost immediately. Then there's that thing where cherished people and things are here and present, then one day through death or whatever, they become a memory and you have that horrible realisation that you have to leave them behind.

    Lots of ideas, as yet no words...

    I don't really listen to or read lyrics (which is probably why I'm rubbish at writing them). So having done a bit of research, I was surprised to find this was such a well worn subject! I really am that ignorant! There's loads out there I could be nicking ideas from...
    The Scrambler-EE Walk soundcloud experience
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  • There should be a Soundcloud page for this: Songs needing lyrics. Post them on there and see what comes back from other members who find it easy writing words.
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  • Creed_ClicksCreed_Clicks Frets: 1385
    Nearly all my rough recordings need lyrics. I can sing, hum the melody I'd like, but am awful at lyrics.

    @ewal Sigur Ros made a career of made up words.
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  • ewalewal Frets: 2558
    As did The Cocteau Twins.
    The Scrambler-EE Walk soundcloud experience
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  • Who would be the best person to consider starting a Soundcloud page? @TTony ?
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  • TTonyTTony Frets: 27343
    Who would be the best person to consider starting a Soundcloud page? @TTony ?
    He already did that
    ;)

    https://soundcloud.com/thefretboard
    Having trouble posting images here?  This might help.
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  • TTonyTTony Frets: 27343
    For lyrics, you could look at old poetry, or passages from books that are in some way significant or related to the meaning that you have in your head ...

    Recycle!!
    Having trouble posting images here?  This might help.
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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 16253
    ewal said:
    Old thread I know, but I'm shit at lyrics so have stuck to instrumental music for the last few years. While I like the instrumentals I've done (mostly), I now I feel I would like to improve my lyric writing and put together a few actual proper songs.

    I wonder if I could get away with recording a melody with sounds that approximate to words. then translating it in to something. Most of the time you can't really hear what words are being sung anyway!
    Of course you can! That's how the lyrics get written in some bands - first you get a melody down and the phrasing that suits the music. Then find some words that deliver the same effect - and hopefully with some meaning, but so what if you don't? Nonsense words sung by humans can evoke an emotional response and sound great.

    Not all songs need to make sense or have lyrics that tell a story. Some songs only make sense to the singer. But the delivery has an emotional response in the listener. 

    If you watch something like the Classic Albums series or almost any interview with rock or pop musicians this is 98% of the time the process. So, a lot of The Beatles or Def Leppard, Lily Allen, etc,etc,etc. Wasn't Yesterday famously Scrambled Eggs for a while? 


    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
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  • TTony said:
    Who would be the best person to consider starting a Soundcloud page? @TTony ?
    He already did that
    ;)

    https://soundcloud.com/thefretboard

    Ok, cheers. I wondered if there were different ones for different sections, i.e. riff of the month etc etc
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  • TTonyTTony Frets: 27343
    There’s one Soundcloud account.  It’s a paid for account, so you probably wouldn’t want more than one, and don’t need more than one to stay within storage limits, etc.

    You could create separate playlists within the account (which is what happens for the Riff, etc, OTM content) for each collaboration to keep all contributions separated.

    Someone would need to have PW though, to allow uploads and create the playlists.
    Having trouble posting images here?  This might help.
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  • guitarjack66guitarjack66 Frets: 1796
    ewal said:
    Old thread I know, but I'm shit at lyrics so have stuck to instrumental music for the last few years. While I like the instrumentals I've done (mostly), I now I feel I would like to improve my lyric writing and put together a few actual proper songs.

    I wonder if I could get away with recording a melody with sounds that approximate to words. then translating it in to something. Most of the time you can't really hear what words are being sung anyway!
    Of course you can! That's how the lyrics get written in some bands - first you get a melody down and the phrasing that suits the music. Then find some words that deliver the same effect - and hopefully with some meaning, but so what if you don't? Nonsense words sung by humans can evoke an emotional response and sound great.

    Not all songs need to make sense or have lyrics that tell a story. Some songs only make sense to the singer. But the delivery has an emotional response in the listener. 

    If you watch something like the Classic Albums series or almost any interview with rock or pop musicians this is 98% of the time the process. So, a lot of The Beatles or Def Leppard, Lily Allen, etc,etc,etc. Wasn't Yesterday famously Scrambled Eggs for a while? 


    Classic albums,Lily Allen? 

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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 16253
    ewal said:
    Old thread I know, but I'm shit at lyrics so have stuck to instrumental music for the last few years. While I like the instrumentals I've done (mostly), I now I feel I would like to improve my lyric writing and put together a few actual proper songs.

    I wonder if I could get away with recording a melody with sounds that approximate to words. then translating it in to something. Most of the time you can't really hear what words are being sung anyway!
    Of course you can! That's how the lyrics get written in some bands - first you get a melody down and the phrasing that suits the music. Then find some words that deliver the same effect - and hopefully with some meaning, but so what if you don't? Nonsense words sung by humans can evoke an emotional response and sound great.

    Not all songs need to make sense or have lyrics that tell a story. Some songs only make sense to the singer. But the delivery has an emotional response in the listener. 

    If you watch something like the Classic Albums series or almost any interview with rock or pop musicians this is 98% of the time the process. So, a lot of The Beatles or Def Leppard, Lily Allen, etc,etc,etc. Wasn't Yesterday famously Scrambled Eggs for a while? 


    Classic albums,Lily Allen? 

    Just trying to get a range of artists and I remembered an interview with Lily Allen about her 'process.' Which is someone else does the music and she creates a top line melody and lyric. Which is essentially the same process as Black Sabbath. 
    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
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  • KevSKevS Frets: 468
    I think like anything,,you have to learn to develop and elaborate on your idea...
    This happens when you write music,,but also lyrics..

    This is one of the ways I do it..

    Ask.... What do you want the song to be about...??
    Then just start singing any old bollocks,.
    Taking the any old bollocks method further,,a song theme can suggest itself..
    Try and then mould those bollocks to fit that subject matter..
    When you get your first line......Write it down..

    Now my first cheat..Sing words that nearly rhyme with the ending word....
    Plus the obvious ones that do..
    Nearly rhyming I find a cheat way of making things sound more natural..
    People won't know you have used a rhyming dictionary..etc
    If you find a word that is relevant..
    Work on the words before it,,make that line mean something..
    Be careful of using too many words,,you only have so much breath..

    At any point any good melodies come out,,record them,,because the timing within those melodies is important..

    Keep developing at least the Verses that way..

    Come up with a Memorable Phrase for the Chorus and use it in there somewhere...

    Getting more complex,,the Verse can Tell the Story,,but the Chorus can ram the message Home..

    The Bridge,,try and make a  good musical contrast...
    It stops the song from sounding like it is dragging on..
    Bowie done Crazy Bridges that was a complete departure from the rest of the song..
    You could use a contrasting observation,,or something along the same theme but from a different observer..

    I find songs often develop themselves,,but some are easy,,some aren't..

    If I can get 2 verses and a chorus,,I will continue later..

    Make sure you record what you have no matter how rough...

    Once you have the lyrics to the whole song..
    Try attempt number one with backing...
    Or if you are not happy with the lyrics..
    Remember you can use anything before that last rhyming or nearly rhyming word..
    So here is the time to get more poetic..
    Also look at the tumble and fall of the rhythm of the words..
    Check for cliches and throw them out...

    If you record with backing first,,go over the lyrics after then record the song..

    Take a break away from the song for a week..
    Then judge and alter the words  as needed..
    Some obviously lyrics will fall out at this point and you will think,,why didn't I think of that..
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  • MentalSharpsMentalSharps Frets: 165
    edited May 2022
    I guess it depends what your musical goals are, if the aim is enjoyment and learning and developing as a writer, then ignore this!

    But It may be better to collaborate with someone who focuses on writing, and ending up with something greater than the sum of parts. If creating music that's widely experienced/appreciated by others is the goal, by writing yourself you may end up limiting the potential of your music, or delaying your progression until the point that you develop enough as a writer to do the music justice.
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  • Creed_ClicksCreed_Clicks Frets: 1385
    I might try and sample auld fellas rambling on and on, in different languages, and put music behind it.
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  • guitarjack66guitarjack66 Frets: 1796
    ewal said:
    Old thread I know, but I'm shit at lyrics so have stuck to instrumental music for the last few years. While I like the instrumentals I've done (mostly), I now I feel I would like to improve my lyric writing and put together a few actual proper songs.

    I wonder if I could get away with recording a melody with sounds that approximate to words. then translating it in to something. Most of the time you can't really hear what words are being sung anyway!
    Of course you can! That's how the lyrics get written in some bands - first you get a melody down and the phrasing that suits the music. Then find some words that deliver the same effect - and hopefully with some meaning, but so what if you don't? Nonsense words sung by humans can evoke an emotional response and sound great.

    Not all songs need to make sense or have lyrics that tell a story. Some songs only make sense to the singer. But the delivery has an emotional response in the listener. 

    If you watch something like the Classic Albums series or almost any interview with rock or pop musicians this is 98% of the time the process. So, a lot of The Beatles or Def Leppard, Lily Allen, etc,etc,etc. Wasn't Yesterday famously Scrambled Eggs for a while? 


    Classic albums,Lily Allen? 

    Just trying to get a range of artists and I remembered an interview with Lily Allen about her 'process.' Which is someone else does the music and she creates a top line melody and lyric. Which is essentially the same process as Black Sabbath. 
    Not into heavy metal myself but the Lily Allen comment was just based on me only hearing one or two of her songs and them sounding like 'bubblegum pop' or whatever. I just had no idea she'd done much at all.
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