I did some very rough numbers for a 3 day tour

WiresDreamDisasters

And the news doesn't look good.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jf0qgR65LHQii9TGXqLAWFtkYL-paRqUqHuJ0wSw4Mg/edit?usp=sharing

I thought this might interest people. Maybe some of my numbers are off. Maybe it's a bit too pessimistic or even conservative. But it looks like a very costly endeavour to drive to Europe and play 3 shows.

This came about when our bassist was being, lets say, overly enthusiastic about going to Europe to play shows. This was my way of saying "here is the reality before us".

digitalscream

Or, in other words...you'd be spending the equivalent of a month's PR campaign with most PR companies.

I know which I'd rather spend the money on.

Then again...there's the experience of doing a mini-tour in Europe for less than the cost of a weekend break each. Possibly worth it? I'd imagine it's going to get more expensive soon...

...oh, and I think you may have missed out the cost of a booking agent?

Teyeplayer

This is the absolute reality of being in a band playing original material. Add about £100 for each of the members that conveniently ‘don’t feel comfortable driving abroad’ because you know they’ll spend at least that on beer, then plus £20 on top of your fuel calculation per day just to be on the safe side.

Depending on marital status, also make your bassist aware the cost of the mini-break that they are not invited on may not go down too well with the spouse.

Panama_Jack666

Would you already have accommodation sorted for free?

It's difficult - can be profitable if you sell out shows I imagine. I know theater shows can be like that. Massive risk unless loads of tickets sell.  

I would be good if you had someone to split the risk with like a promoter or other band?

not_the_dj

Do you have insurance and does it cover you in europe?

DLM

Panama_Jack666 said:

Would you already have accommodation sorted for free?

Says at the top they're planning on sleeping in the van.

camf

It's been a long time ago but I did tour across in Europe several times. I'm not sure what it's like now, but gigging in Europe used to be a much more civilised affair than in the UK. We always got a decent fee, accommodation and usually dinner too. A lot of venues - especially in the Netherlands and Germany - had government support as youth/arts venue so were able to support the artist properly. Maybe - like lots of great things from back then - things are much more shit now, but I'd like to hear from anyone who's done it recently.

I'm hoping to play a couple of gigs in Germany at some stage over the next few months, so I guess I'll have a better idea. Has anyone else been over there recently and can report back?

guitarfishbay

I thought this was a good video on the topic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APBoYf73oz4

Panama_Jack666

DLM said:

Panama_Jack666 said:

Would you already have accommodation sorted for free?

Says at the top they're planning on sleeping in the van.

Ah, I'd missed that!

EricTheWeary

I don't think you included toll roads in France? They are avoidable as long as you know to avoid them. The Via Michelin app is good for planning European trips as it includes toll costs, approx fuel costs.

Quite a lot of European cities have Crit Air ( low emission zones) schemes so you'll need to check if you need those and purchase them ahead if you do ( you buy a sticker for a few quid offsetting your carbon emissions but there is a hefty fine if you haven't got one). 

If anyone in the band collects Tesco clubcard points ( so rock'n'roll) you can use them against Eurotunnel, £30 worth for each £10 of points. 

Based on reading the larger forums it does seem to be pretty much the UK as the only place where the venue wouldn't feed you. I've seen bands play in small town France and in Amsterdam and they certainly ate there, wether they paid for their food or not I don't know. 

Four (?) people sleeping in a van along with any equipment sounds cramped and sweaty. In The Netherlands the police won't tolerate overnight sleeping in vehicles in unauthorised areas so something else to bear in mind. 

dindude

Whilst this highlights the true cash flow to get up and running, in reality, if you buy a batch of 100 T shirts and sell 25, you have a stock asset of 75 remaining, there’s a value to that that needs factoring in.

WiresDreamDisasters

dindude said:

Whilst this highlights the true cash flow to get up and running, in reality, if you buy a batch of 100 T shirts and sell 25, you have a stock asset of 75 remaining, there’s a value to that that needs factoring in.

Yes but that doesn't make the tour itself profitable. We throw those on our Bandcamp before/after the tour, and they become a separate rev stream.

EricTheWeary said:

I don't think you included toll roads in France? They are avoidable as long as you know to avoid them. The Via Michelin app is good for planning European trips as it includes toll costs, approx fuel costs.

Quite a lot of European cities have Crit Air ( low emission zones) schemes so you'll need to check if you need those and purchase them ahead if you do ( you buy a sticker for a few quid offsetting your carbon emissions but there is a hefty fine if you haven't got one). 

If anyone in the band collects Tesco clubcard points ( so rock'n'roll) you can use them against Eurotunnel, £30 worth for each £10 of points. 

Based on reading the larger forums it does seem to be pretty much the UK as the only place where the venue wouldn't feed you. I've seen bands play in small town France and in Amsterdam and they certainly ate there, wether they paid for their food or not I don't know. 

Four (?) people sleeping in a van along with any equipment sounds cramped and sweaty. In The Netherlands the police won't tolerate overnight sleeping in vehicles in unauthorised areas so something else to bear in mind. 

Good call on the toll roads, didn't consider that. What I've heard recently from friends in the Netherlands, France, and Germany, is that things have gotten closer to the UK way of doing things out there. Could be scene specific I suppose.

Panama_Jack666 said:

DLM said:

Panama_Jack666 said:

Would you already have accommodation sorted for free?

Says at the top they're planning on sleeping in the van.

Ah, I'd missed that!

The sleeping in the van thing I did to demonstrate that even if we were willing to do it Nirvana in the early days style... we'd still lose quite a bit of money.

not_the_dj said:

Do you have insurance and does it cover you in europe?

Nope!

digitalscream said:

Or, in other words...you'd be spending the equivalent of a month's PR campaign with most PR companies.

I know which I'd rather spend the money on.

Then again...there's the experience of doing a mini-tour in Europe for less than the cost of a weekend break each. Possibly worth it? I'd imagine it's going to get more expensive soon...

...oh, and I think you may have missed out the cost of a booking agent?

You don't need a booking agent necessarily. You can do it yourself. An awful lot of work, but I do have the contacts to do it if I wanted.

I think you're right on the "month's PR campaign" aspect - we'd be better off spending that money on PR campaigns, Facebook and Youtube ad's.

As for the experience of doing a mini-tour in Europe and considering it a holiday of sorts. I'd rather go on holiday with my wife and child in most cases!

p90fool

I think you have to weight up whether you're doing it for the experience and as an entertaining dead end, or whether it's to build support in terms of downloads or YouTube support. 

If it's the latter then obviously you'll expect to at least break even, but I don't know how you'd turn a handful of gigs hundreds of miles apart (potentially to tiny audiences) into sustained growth. 

I've done a couple of lengthy European tours but am out of date with the current situation, also it was with European bands - but we always had restaurant vouchers and accommodation provided.  

My friends who still do it say France is pretty much unchanged and is still a rewarding place to gig, but you're in a genre I know nothing about. 

WiresDreamDisasters

Well I think you'd want to at least break even on an originals tour, yes. Otherwise IMHO it isn't worth doing. I'd rather stay home and spend time with my wife and child, and make memes - and this is a band I've put nearly 12 years of my life into and we've got a name for ourselves and have fans and can sell merch and all that jazz. But I'm up for something so obviously lacking in return on investment - whether that's time or money.

ESBlonde

You need to arrange being in local press and on local radio ahead of or on the day of the event to maximise ticket sales. British/English music still dominates western Europe.
Van sleeping is the default fallback, but it is not uncommon for struggling bands to announce they have no accommodation on stage and receive offers from new fans. It may only be a sofa or floor, but breakfast and bathroom facilities make it seem heavenly compared to peeing in a plastic water bottle.
Don't forget to pack a small stage essentials tool kit just in case. On that note make sure one of you has RAC/AA or similar cover if the hire van doesnt have it. 
Have you thought of including a festival slot to give guaranteed income from one day?

brooom

WiresDreamDisasters said:

And the news doesn't look good.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jf0qgR65LHQii9TGXqLAWFtkYL-paRqUqHuJ0wSw4Mg/edit?usp=sharing

I thought this might interest people. Maybe some of my numbers are off. Maybe it's a bit too pessimistic or even conservative. But it looks like a very costly endeavour to drive to Europe and play 3 shows.

This came about when our bassist was being, lets say, overly enthusiastic about going to Europe to play shows. This was my way of saying "here is the reality before us".

Do bands still do the CDs thing at gigs? Do people still take CDs home to listen to?

Gassage

Get a big enough van and do some traffiking for cash at Calais. Solved.

WiresDreamDisasters

brooom said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

And the news doesn't look good.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jf0qgR65LHQii9TGXqLAWFtkYL-paRqUqHuJ0wSw4Mg/edit?usp=sharing

I thought this might interest people. Maybe some of my numbers are off. Maybe it's a bit too pessimistic or even conservative. But it looks like a very costly endeavour to drive to Europe and play 3 shows.

This came about when our bassist was being, lets say, overly enthusiastic about going to Europe to play shows. This was my way of saying "here is the reality before us".

Do bands still do the CDs thing at gigs? Do people still take CDs home to listen to?

Not really no. Vinyl sells better.

Danny1969

It's a tough game these days trying to make any money from originals. People just don't value music anymore and have very short spans of attention for music they haven't heard before. Most of the artist I worked with in the studio built up big Youtube  \ FB bases before embarking on even small UK tours ... otherwise the numbers didn't add up. Even then it was a case of keeping costs to the minimum ...one guitar and keys on the tour rather than the 2 guitars, keys and horns that were on the record. Lot of room sharing an minimal gear as everyone in one double cab. 

I spose it's not done anymore but the way it used to be done is the band played covers and originals ... and the more fans you got the less covers you did until basically you were an originals band. I was in a band called Truffle in the early nineties and they did 2 tours of Germany and literally thousands of gigs using that process. Locally they were selling out 500 capacity venues despite the fact they never had a deal. Oddly enough 20 years later, High Roller,  a German rock vinyl company re released all the stuff on vinyl and everyone made a tiny bit of money 

My step son is 20, he's into shed loads of bands I've never heard of including a lot of American indie bands who tour over here. It's all done by building a large fan base online first I think then going for the tour

camf

It seems CDs might still do pretty well in Europe. My recent experience is that distributers are still keen on CDs for European and international sales as they feel there's still solid retail markets for them over there. I'm not sure how that converts into gig-going audiences who may well skew younger and be keener on download and streaming. But I'd guess it would make sense to have a bundle of CDs with you, since they're easier to carry, cheaper to make and I'd presume you could sell more of them fairly cheaply at gigs and still make some profit out of the deal. But I don't know this for sure. It's just the impression I've got from talking to labels and other bands.

p90fool

@Danny1969 Larkin Poe are doing quite well touring and selling their own music, but probably came originally to most people's attention through their "Tip o' the hat" series of YouTube covers.

That's certainly how I came across them, and it's allowed them to push their own material more seriously to a wider, receptive audience.