Mix advice needed!

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  • BranshenBranshen Frets: 1222
    edited August 2019
    @octatonic how much bass do you think should be in a track like this? Would love some reference tracks that you think are a good level.

    The stuff I listen to have a healthy amount of bass. This is a similar track which I like the sound of.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxPsNuiEvsk

    Would have preferred to track this with a precision instead of a jazz. Jazz basses have this mid-range presence that I find is not as easy to mix, if the bass is meant to merely support the track. 
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  • I think it's just the lowest of the lowest notes on the bass that poke through a bit too much. Maybe try some dynamic EQ to tame 80-120hz so that it's a bit more controlled?

    Bye!

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  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 2393
    That's a big improvement, the vocals are much better now and the overall mix balance seems good. I agree that the bass still booms a bit. The intro acoustic has too much reverb for my tastes, and it's too percussive -- try compressing a little with a fast attack?
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  • BranshenBranshen Frets: 1222
    edited August 2019
    Alright. Appreciate all the comments.

    Will try to sort that bass out. After listening a few more times, I agree that it can be tamed, especially during the quieter sections. Will add automation there. And also try to rein in some of the boom..

    I have done a quick bit of reading about dynamic EQ and think I can get a similar outcome with a multiband compressor (which I'm familiar with and have in Ableton). Thanks @WiresDreamDisasters.

    Mixing alone is really hard, so thank you all for chipping in generously. 
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  • FreebirdFreebird Frets: 5821
    edited August 2019
    I aim for -18dB on individual tracks, and avoid going over -6dB on the Master Bus.

    How flat are your monitors and the room? If you have any problems here you will struggle to get your bass to sit right.

    A solution would be to install room treatment, or you could try some room correction software such as Sonarworks or IKM ARC.
    If we are not ashamed to think it, we should not be ashamed to say it.
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    edited August 2019
    Branshen said:
    @octatonic how much bass do you think should be in a track like this? Would love some reference tracks that you think are a good level.

    The stuff I listen to have a healthy amount of bass. This is a similar track which I like the sound of.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxPsNuiEvsk

    Would have preferred to track this with a precision instead of a jazz. Jazz basses have this mid-range presence that I find is not as easy to mix, if the bass is meant to merely support the track. 
    It depends on the part.
    Have a listen to Hot Property by Jamiroquai.
    It has the loudest bass of almost any track, but it is appropriate to the song and a really well played and strong part- it carries the tune.

    The bass in this track isn't strong enough to be that loud- it needs to be more supporting of the other elements.
    That isn't a criticism of the part or the playing, it is just what is appropriate in this song with all the other elements.
    I maintain I'd retrack the bass with fewer long notes and a bit more movement, more staccato and/or ornamentation.

    You don't need a multi band compressor, you need a good compressor- I favour an LA3a, Distressor, or 1176 or a plugin that gets into that territory. You also need some corrective EQ.
    A dynamic EQ can do both of these things, but I fear it may make it too confusing- stick to the basics, work EQ and compression.

    This is all IMHO by the way- feel free to disagree, part of the process is working out what works for you, but (again IMHO) there are a few principles that need to be adhered to.
    I really think you are working in a room that has bass issues.
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  • BranshenBranshen Frets: 1222
    Thanks guys. My room is far from ideal. It's just a living room with my speakers (front ported iLoud micros) almost up against the wall.

    @octatonic Your advice about retracking the bass is appreciated. but I've decided that I don't want to go down that rabbit hole. there are lots of things that could be improved by re-recording (acoustic guitar is far from ideal for example), but I decided that I'll do my best with the material in the mix and move on to my next project. Consider it a lesson for next time. 

    I'll try some EQ and compression.
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  • FreebirdFreebird Frets: 5821
    edited August 2019
    Branshen said:
    Thanks guys. My room is far from ideal. It's just a living room with my speakers (front ported iLoud micros) almost up against the wall.

    @octatonic Your advice about retracking the bass is appreciated. but I've decided that I don't want to go down that rabbit hole. there are lots of things that could be improved by re-recording (acoustic guitar is far from ideal for example), but I decided that I'll do my best with the material in the mix and move on to my next project. Consider it a lesson for next time. 

    I'll try some EQ and compression.
    The new iLoud MTM monitors claim to have solved this problem with the built-in DSP room correction giving a flat response, and bass extension down to 40 Hz! The caveat is you need a tighter working area and moderate volume levels, which is a decent trade-off for mixing purposes.
    If we are not ashamed to think it, we should not be ashamed to say it.
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  • BranshenBranshen Frets: 1222
    edited August 2019
    Freebird said:
    Branshen said:
    Thanks guys. My room is far from ideal. It's just a living room with my speakers (front ported iLoud micros) almost up against the wall.

    @octatonic Your advice about retracking the bass is appreciated. but I've decided that I don't want to go down that rabbit hole. there are lots of things that could be improved by re-recording (acoustic guitar is far from ideal for example), but I decided that I'll do my best with the material in the mix and move on to my next project. Consider it a lesson for next time. 

    I'll try some EQ and compression.
    The new iLoud MTM monitors claim to have solved this problem with the built-in DSP room correction giving a flat response, and bass extension down to 40 Hz! The caveat is you need a tighter working area and moderate volume levels, which is a decent trade-off for mixing purposes.
    Saw those when they came out. Unfortunately, my gear fund is depleted for the foreseeable future, and I'd be more inclined to get some Yamaha HS7s anyway, which are half the price! (though I appreciate I'd still have bass problems. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it)
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    edited August 2019
    Freebird said:
    Branshen said:
    Thanks guys. My room is far from ideal. It's just a living room with my speakers (front ported iLoud micros) almost up against the wall.

    @octatonic Your advice about retracking the bass is appreciated. but I've decided that I don't want to go down that rabbit hole. there are lots of things that could be improved by re-recording (acoustic guitar is far from ideal for example), but I decided that I'll do my best with the material in the mix and move on to my next project. Consider it a lesson for next time. 

    I'll try some EQ and compression.
    The new iLoud MTM monitors claim to have solved this problem with the built-in DSP room correction giving a flat response, and bass extension down to 40 Hz! The caveat is you need a tighter working area and moderate volume levels, which is a decent trade-off for mixing purposes.
    Except it isn't true- be careful with marketing spin, use your ears in your room.

    There are no magic monitors, even with room correction you don't get 'flat'.
    Even with monitors costing five figures you don't get flat (and I know this from personal experience).
    'Flat' isn't even really a meaningful term.

    What you want is 'translatable'.
    Translatable in the sense that you can take your mix to different rooms and playback systems and not having anything crazy poking out.

    That is part having decent monitors, part having a good room and mostly knowing your monitors really well and being skilful.
    You don't even have to spend loads of money- Joe Baressi mixes on mostly low to mid range monitors, including M Audio Studiophiles which most people would agree are pretty average.

    But he has a great room, a killer SSL console, loads of outboard and really, really good ears. 

    I've got a set of iLouds Micro's (as my 3rd set of monitors attached to my Eurorack) and I've heard the MTM's.
    They are fine for what they are and an interesting development but there is no free lunch here.

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  • FreebirdFreebird Frets: 5821
    edited August 2019
    Branshen said:
    Saw those when they came out. Unfortunately, my gear fund is depleted for the foreseeable future, and I'd be more inclined to get some Yamaha HS7s anyway, which are half the price! (though I appreciate I'd still have bass problems. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it)
    On paper, the MTMs are by far the best option for mixing in an untreated room. I'm surprised that nobody came up with the idea before IKM did. Having 7" inch woofers in an untreated room is going to be carnage. The whole idea is to scale back the volume levels to stop the troublesome frequencies bouncing around the room. The built-in room correction will help a lot too. It's a bit of a dilemma, as you have to decide if you want to focus on mixing, or if you want to have a pair of general purpose speakers that go loud. After careful consideration, I have come to the come the conclusion that you probably need two sets of speakers 

    BTW check out the Kali Audio LP-6 if you are looking for bigger speakers.
    If we are not ashamed to think it, we should not be ashamed to say it.
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    edited August 2019
    Freebird said:
    Branshen said:
    Saw those when they came out. Unfortunately, my gear fund is depleted for the foreseeable future, and I'd be more inclined to get some Yamaha HS7s anyway, which are half the price! (though I appreciate I'd still have bass problems. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it)
    On paper, the MTMs are by far the best option for mixing in an untreated room. I'm surprised that nobody came up with the idea before IKM did. Having 7" inch woofers in an untreated room is going to be carnage. The whole idea is to scale back the volume levels to stop the troublesome frequencies bouncing around the room. The built-in room correction will help a lot too. It's a bit of a dilemma, as you have to decide if you want to focus on mixing, or if you want to have a pair of general purpose speakers that go loud. After careful consideration, I have come to the come the conclusion that you probably need two sets of speakers 
    It isn't a new idea at all- people have been using EQ to correct room issues for years- Graphic EQ's have been used for this for years, especially in the live space (dubbed 'ringing out the room').

    Room correction is only a partial solution and doesn't address all the potential problems with rooms and is not superior to a well treated room.
    In some cases it can make things worse.

    I'm not saying room correction is not useful, it is certainly useful- I use it with my Kii Three's at the moment, but not all the time.

    Have a read of this: http://www.audiosignal.co.uk/Resources/Digital_room_equalisation_A4.pdf
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  • FreebirdFreebird Frets: 5821
    edited August 2019
    octatonic said:
    Freebird said:
    Branshen said:
    Saw those when they came out. Unfortunately, my gear fund is depleted for the foreseeable future, and I'd be more inclined to get some Yamaha HS7s anyway, which are half the price! (though I appreciate I'd still have bass problems. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it)
    On paper, the MTMs are by far the best option for mixing in an untreated room. I'm surprised that nobody came up with the idea before IKM did. Having 7" inch woofers in an untreated room is going to be carnage. The whole idea is to scale back the volume levels to stop the troublesome frequencies bouncing around the room. The built-in room correction will help a lot too. It's a bit of a dilemma, as you have to decide if you want to focus on mixing, or if you want to have a pair of general purpose speakers that go loud. After careful consideration, I have come to the come the conclusion that you probably need two sets of speakers 
    It isn't a new idea at all- people have been using EQ to correct room issues for years- Graphic EQ's have been used for this for years, especially in the live space (dubbed 'ringing out the room').

    Room correction is only a partial solution and doesn't address all the potential problems with rooms and is not superior to a well treated room.
    In some cases it can make things worse.

    I'm not saying room correction is not useful, it is certainly useful- I use it with my Kii Three's at the moment, but not all the time.

    Have a read of this: http://www.audiosignal.co.uk/Resources/Digital_room_equalisation_A4.pdf
    I'm talking about room correction in conjunction with lower operating volumes, and a tighter near field listening environment. Taken as a whole it solves a lot of problems, and is ideal for hobbyist musicians making music in their their living room and/or bedroom, etc. If you are willing to apply proper room treatment, then for sure go for bigger and better speakers, but be prepared for some trouble if you skip the room treatment part. Given those two scenarios, the MTMs will be a good choice for a certain sector of the market. As you say, it's all about producing mixes that translate well in other listening environments, and historically this has been an expensive process undertaken by professionals in purpose built studios.
    If we are not ashamed to think it, we should not be ashamed to say it.
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    edited August 2019
    Freebird said:
    octatonic said:
    Freebird said:
    Branshen said:
    Saw those when they came out. Unfortunately, my gear fund is depleted for the foreseeable future, and I'd be more inclined to get some Yamaha HS7s anyway, which are half the price! (though I appreciate I'd still have bass problems. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it)
    On paper, the MTMs are by far the best option for mixing in an untreated room. I'm surprised that nobody came up with the idea before IKM did. Having 7" inch woofers in an untreated room is going to be carnage. The whole idea is to scale back the volume levels to stop the troublesome frequencies bouncing around the room. The built-in room correction will help a lot too. It's a bit of a dilemma, as you have to decide if you want to focus on mixing, or if you want to have a pair of general purpose speakers that go loud. After careful consideration, I have come to the come the conclusion that you probably need two sets of speakers 
    It isn't a new idea at all- people have been using EQ to correct room issues for years- Graphic EQ's have been used for this for years, especially in the live space (dubbed 'ringing out the room').

    Room correction is only a partial solution and doesn't address all the potential problems with rooms and is not superior to a well treated room.
    In some cases it can make things worse.

    I'm not saying room correction is not useful, it is certainly useful- I use it with my Kii Three's at the moment, but not all the time.

    Have a read of this: http://www.audiosignal.co.uk/Resources/Digital_room_equalisation_A4.pdf
    I'm talking about room correction in conjunction with lower operating volumes, and a tighter near field listening environment. Taken as a whole it solves a lot of problems, and is ideal for hobbyist musicians making music in their their living room and/or bedroom, etc. If you are willing to apply proper room treatment, then for sure go for bigger and better speakers, but be prepared for some trouble if you skip the room treatment part. Given those two scenarios, the MTMs will be a good choice for a certain sector of the market. As you say, it's all about producing mixes that translate well in other listening environments, and historically this has been an expensive process undertaken by professionals in purpose built studios.
    Again, I am going to disagree with the arc of your narrative.

    Historically sure, but in recent years actually a hell of a lot of albums (even charting albums) are mixed in suboptimal rooms by people who know what they are doing.

    Andrew Scheps has mixed tracks with a laptop and a set of headphones.
    Properly built commercial studios have been going to the wall and most mixers now have their own space, where previously they worked from rooms with large format consoles and tape machines.

    As computers have become more powerful and tape has become more difficult to manage/justify people have been mixing more and more in their own studios, which often have a moderate amount of acoustic treatment but usually not purpose built studios that have been designed by acousticians and built by experts.
    They are usually brick buildings with a framed internal structure, some rockwool in the walls and some bass trapping/diffusion added into the room.
    This is the environment where room correction is useful- in a non-perfect but not untreated room.

    All rooms used for mixing on monitors should have some bass trapping, even with the MTM's.

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  • FreebirdFreebird Frets: 5821
    edited August 2019
    octatonic said:
    Again, I am going to disagree with the arc of your narrative.

    Historically sure, but in recent years actually a hell of a lot of albums (even charting albums) are mixed in suboptimal rooms by people who know what they are doing.

    Andrew Scheps has mixed tracks with a laptop and a set of headphones.
    Properly built commercial studios have been going to the wall and most mixers now have their own space, where previously they worked from rooms with large format consoles and tape machines.

    As computers have become more powerful and tape has become more difficult to manage/justify people have bene mixing more and more in their own studios, which often have a moderate amount of acoustic treatment but usually not purpose built studios that have been designed by acousticians and built by experts.
    They are usually brick buildings with a framed internal structure, some rockwool in the walls and some bass trapping/diffusion added into the room.
    This is the environment where room correction is useful- in a non-perfect but not untreated room.

    All rooms used for mixing on monitors should have some bass trapping, even with the MTM's.
    It's all a trade-off, and after spending a packet on installing room treatment, you most likely won't want to stick Yamma HS7's in there. So up goes the speaker budget and on and on it goes, and that's assuming that you can get the idea of bass traps in the living room past the Mrs in the first place 

    I'm actually in the market for a mixing solution, so I will be keeping an eye on the MTMs and watching for some proper reviews to see what they can do in the real world. I think they are a bit expensive for what they are, so with a price adjustment they may be just the ticket to mix my next smash hit on the kitchen table ... or maybe not 
    If we are not ashamed to think it, we should not be ashamed to say it.
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  • FreebirdFreebird Frets: 5821
    edited August 2019
    Tom Lord-Alge seems to like the MTMs, but he would probably fall in love with anything if the price was right   =)


    If we are not ashamed to think it, we should not be ashamed to say it.
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    Freebird said:
    Tom Lord-Alge seems to like the MTMs, but he would probably fall in love with anything if the price was right   =)


    Yes, that is all marketing BS.
    There are guys who make 50% of their income doing this.
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  • I don't really believe in EQ correcting monitors tbh. Fix it at the source - the room. It isn't hard to get a passable monitoring space in this day and age. A few hundred quid spent on DIY broadband absorbers will get you 90% of what you need.

    Controlling uber lows is very difficult. But 100hz and upwards is pretty easy.

    I ignored it for years myself. Trained on a pair of Tannoy reveals in a reverberated room. It's a surprise my mixes were any good back then tbh!

    Bye!

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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    I don't really believe in EQ correcting monitors tbh. Fix it at the source - the room. It isn't hard to get a passable monitoring space in this day and age. A few hundred quid spent on DIY broadband absorbers will get you 90% of what you need.

    Controlling uber lows is very difficult. But 100hz and upwards is pretty easy.

    I ignored it for years myself. Trained on a pair of Tannoy reveals in a reverberated room. It's a surprise my mixes were any good back then tbh!
    Precisely.

    You don't need to spend loads of money on monitors in order to produce great sounding mixes, although I enjoy working on the Kii Three's a lot more than I did on my old Dynaudio's.
    Before I had Dynaudio's I had some passive JBL's with an Alesis 100w power amp and various other things before that.
    They were all broadly fine.

    I'm not against DSP (obviously, owning the Kii's) but it cannot be a replacement for the usual real world stuff that needs to happen.
    DSP on top isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it won't solve fundamental problems, or even mitigate them that well.

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  • FreebirdFreebird Frets: 5821
    edited August 2019
    octatonic said:
    I don't really believe in EQ correcting monitors tbh. Fix it at the source - the room. It isn't hard to get a passable monitoring space in this day and age. A few hundred quid spent on DIY broadband absorbers will get you 90% of what you need.

    Controlling uber lows is very difficult. But 100hz and upwards is pretty easy.

    I ignored it for years myself. Trained on a pair of Tannoy reveals in a reverberated room. It's a surprise my mixes were any good back then tbh!
    Precisely.

    You don't need to spend loads of money on monitors in order to produce great sounding mixes, although I enjoy working on the Kii Three's a lot more than I did on my old Dynaudio's.
    Before I had Dynaudio's I had some passive JBL's with an Alesis 100w power amp and various other things before that.
    They were all broadly fine.

    I'm not against DSP (obviously, owning the Kii's) but it cannot be a replacement for the usual real world stuff that needs to happen.
    DSP on top isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it won't solve fundamental problems, or even mitigate them that well.
    Except the MTMs only have a 3.5" woofer, and they operate at a lower output volume about a meter in front of your ears, which means they are throwing out less low frequency material that dissipates earlier. Obviously its a trade-off, but that is the whole idea behind their design philosophy. I am waiting to see what people are able to mix on them before I judge their capabilities.
    If we are not ashamed to think it, we should not be ashamed to say it.
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