How do you determine altered extensions?

Branshen

I get that chords can be extended to 7, 9, 11, 13, and regular extensions are dictated by their mode, so an e-minor chord in a song in key of C would be Phrygian and would have possible extensions of b7, b9, 11, b13. (correct me if this understanding is wrong)

How do you explain altered extensions? I know there are alot of altered extensions for dominant chords, but don't understand why. Links to articles/videos that explain this well are welcome.

ArchtopDave

Some guidance that I was given on a jazz course a while back was as follows.

Minor 7th Chords       - extensions are usually either naturals, or flats.
Major 7th Chords       - extensions are usually naturals, or sharps.
Dominant 7th Chords -  extensions can be naturals, flats, or sharps.

Obviously, as you will appreciate, things can get rapidly complicated with a chord having extensions like a flat 9, plus sharp 11 and flat 13. Ultimately, I think there are no fixed rules. It comes down to how a chord sequence sounds, when extended chords are used, which, of course, depends on your own tolerance/appreciation of dissonance within a piece of music.

Jalapeno

The advice I was given on a jazz course was to play a basic triad and ignore them

Same with slash chords - everything after the slash is for the bass player to deal with

Branshen

Jalapeno said:

The advice I was given on a jazz course was to play a basic triad and ignore them

Same with slash chords - everything after the slash is for the bass player to deal with

Haha, I was going to start a thread on slash chords too. But didn't want to bombard the theory sub.. 

Roland

How do I explain them? All notes have a particular sound in relation to the root. Major and minor third, and fifth, are common. Major and minor seventh, and ninth, are less common. The other notes are rarer, which makes them more interesting. Do I need a theory about them? No, because it would need another theory to explain partially bent notes (like the ones between minor and major third which blues players use so much). 

How do do I use them? Like @jalapeno, in rhythm playing I ignore them because they clutter the sound scape. There are exceptions, such as the final chord of the chorus in Moondance where the #5th adds picqancy. In lead playing I’ll often do the opposite, and focus on the altered notes.  

Branshen

I hear you guys. So altered extensions is another step further from regular extensions, and thus more dissonant. And so, the best way to learn them is to try them out and learn their sound? I was hoping for some guidelines on how to build common altered extensions but understand that there may not be such a thing.

Megii

It's not an absolute hard or fast rule, but a good guideline is that if a dominant 7 type chord is acting as the five of the following chord, then it will usually take added altered notes and extensions i.e. #11/b5, b13/#5, b9, #9. There's a kind of tension - release thing going on in the V7 to I progression, and the altered notes will naturally add to this. For the same basic reason, when improvising over a dom 7 type chord that is moving in a V to I way to the next chord, you can use the altered scale, aka super locrian, as this contains all the altered notes.

If the dom 7 chord is not moving in a 5 to 1 way to the next chord, then it generally won't sound right with added altered notes, but a natural 9 or 13 will be OK.

In a minor V to I sequence, the V will very often sound good with an added b9 and/or b13.

Branshen

Megii said:

It's not an absolute hard or fast rule, but a good guideline is that if a dominant 7 type chord is acting as the five of the following chord, then it will usually take added altered notes and extensions i.e. #11/b5, b13/#5, b9, #9. There's a kind of tension - release thing going on in the V7 to I progression, and the altered notes will naturally add to this. For the same basic reason, when improvising over a dom 7 type chord that is moving in a V to I way to the next chord, you can use the altered scale, aka super locrian, as this contains all the altered notes.

If the dom 7 chord is not moving in a 5 to 1 way to the next chord, then it generally won't sound right with added altered notes, but a natural 9 or 13 will be OK.

In a minor V to I sequence, the V will very often sound good with an added b9 and/or b13.

Thanks @Megii! Good tips. The idea of altered extensions being used for tension and release does make sense to me, which also explains why altered extensions are more commonly used with dominant V chords. 

Megii

Branshen said:

Megii said:

It's not an absolute hard or fast rule, but a good guideline is that if a dominant 7 type chord is acting as the five of the following chord, then it will usually take added altered notes and extensions i.e. #11/b5, b13/#5, b9, #9. There's a kind of tension - release thing going on in the V7 to I progression, and the altered notes will naturally add to this. For the same basic reason, when improvising over a dom 7 type chord that is moving in a V to I way to the next chord, you can use the altered scale, aka super locrian, as this contains all the altered notes.

If the dom 7 chord is not moving in a 5 to 1 way to the next chord, then it generally won't sound right with added altered notes, but a natural 9 or 13 will be OK.

In a minor V to I sequence, the V will very often sound good with an added b9 and/or b13.

Thanks @Megii! Good tips. The idea of altered extensions being used for tension and release does make sense to me, which also explains why altered extensions are more commonly used with dominant V chords. 

No probs - I think I originally picked this stuff up from an Emily Remler video - these used to be on Youtube in their entirety, but I think not any more due to copyright issues. But you might still find the bit where she talks about it if you search. It's knowledge that has served me well anyhow.

Megii

Just realised I'm not quite telling you the whole story @Branshen - just to add, for a dom 7 type chord that isn't moving in a V to I way to the next chord, a #11/b5 extension will usually still sound OK, although maybe not if there is a natural 5 in the melody. And if improvising over such a chord you can generally use the lydian dominant scale which is like a mixolydian scale but with a raised 4th degree (i.e. = #11/b5).

Both the Lydian Dominant and Super Locrian scales are modes of the Melodic Minor scale, and you can think of these scales in terms of a transposed Melodic Minor -

i.e.:
- over a dom 7 moving in a V to I way to the next chord, you think Melodic Minor scale up a half step.
- over a dom 7 not moving in a V to I way the the next chord, you think Melodic Minor scale up a 5th.

I think that has now covered it, hope I haven't made it sound more complicated than it really is.

jpfamps

The good of investigating altered extensions, in my view,  is to look at V I (or cycle of Vth resolutions) resolutions and try to work out how the altered extensions of the V chord resolve to the I chord.

The 3rd and b7th of the V chord resolve by a semitone to the I chord, whereas the root and 5th don't.

In contrast the b9 or #9 will add an extra semitone resolution when moving from the V to a I chord.

Another good example of how altered extensions function is in Kenny Burrell's Midnight Blue, which is a 16 bar  blues in in Fm.

There is the following chord sequence in bars 9-12

G7#9b13, Caug7b9, Fm11, Bb9

Looking at G7#9b13 the 7th is F, the #9 is Bb, and the b13 Eb. If we add the major 3rd, B, and b9 (another altered note) Ab, then we have 5 of the notes from the Fm blues scale (in order Eb, F, Ab, Bb, , so these extensions have not been randomly plucked out of the air, but have been derived from the F blues scale, which of course makes perfect sense as this is a blues in Fm.

The Caug7b9, could also be regarded as a subbed C7 resolving to a i chord. 

Branshen

Megii said:

Just realised I'm not quite telling you the whole story @Branshen - just to add, for a dom 7 type chord that isn't moving in a V to I way to the next chord, a #11/b5 extension will usually still sound OK, although maybe not if there is a natural 5 in the melody. And if improvising over such a chord you can generally use the lydian dominant scale which is like a mixolydian scale but with a raised 4th degree (i.e. = #11/b5).

Both the Lydian Dominant and Super Locrian scales are modes of the Melodic Minor scale, and you can think of these scales in terms of a transposed Melodic Minor -

i.e.:
- over a dom 7 moving in a V to I way to the next chord, you think Melodic Minor scale up a half step.
- over a dom 7 not moving in a V to I way the the next chord, you think Melodic Minor scale up a 5th.

I think that has now covered it, hope I haven't made it sound more complicated than it really is.

Not too complicated but will have to test it out to get a feel of the sound. Thanks for typing the essay! 

Branshen

jpfamps said:

The good of investigating altered extensions, in my view,  is to look at V I (or cycle of Vth resolutions) resolutions and try to work out how the altered extensions of the V chord resolve to the I chord.

The 3rd and b7th of the V chord resolve by a semitone to the I chord, whereas the root and 5th don't.

In contrast the b9 or #9 will add an extra semitone resolution when moving from the V to a I chord.

Another good example of how altered extensions function is in Kenny Burrell's Midnight Blue, which is a 16 bar  blues in in Fm.

There is the following chord sequence in bars 9-12

G7#9b13, Caug7b9, Fm11, Bb9

Looking at G7#9b13 the 7th is F, the #9 is Bb, and the b13 Eb. If we add the major 3rd, B, and b9 (another altered note) Ab, then we have 5 of the notes from the Fm blues scale (in order Eb, F, Ab, Bb, , so these extensions have not been randomly plucked out of the air, but have been derived from the F blues scale, which of course makes perfect sense as this is a blues in Fm.

The Caug7b9, could also be regarded as a subbed C7 resolving to a i chord. 

Great input. Thanks. An idea has occurred to me. Just like how we have passing notes between chord tones when playing lead (more common in jazz lead), or passing notes in walking bass, we now have a whole chord which uses that idea of passing over notes that are not diatonic to the key to reach the next chord with a smoother stepwise motion.. And because they are unstable, we have to be careful with them (I.e don't linger on them too long unless we want that flavour or use them as a V Chord which is more unstable by nature).. Would that be somewhat correct? 

Roland

Yes

jpfamps

Branshen said:

jpfamps said:

The good of investigating altered extensions, in my view,  is to look at V I (or cycle of Vth resolutions) resolutions and try to work out how the altered extensions of the V chord resolve to the I chord.

The 3rd and b7th of the V chord resolve by a semitone to the I chord, whereas the root and 5th don't.

In contrast the b9 or #9 will add an extra semitone resolution when moving from the V to a I chord.

Another good example of how altered extensions function is in Kenny Burrell's Midnight Blue, which is a 16 bar  blues in in Fm.

There is the following chord sequence in bars 9-12

G7#9b13, Caug7b9, Fm11, Bb9

Looking at G7#9b13 the 7th is F, the #9 is Bb, and the b13 Eb. If we add the major 3rd, B, and b9 (another altered note) Ab, then we have 5 of the notes from the Fm blues scale (in order Eb, F, Ab, Bb, , so these extensions have not been randomly plucked out of the air, but have been derived from the F blues scale, which of course makes perfect sense as this is a blues in Fm.

The Caug7b9, could also be regarded as a subbed C7 resolving to a i chord. 

Great input. Thanks. An idea has occurred to me. Just like how we have passing notes between chord tones when playing lead (more common in jazz lead), or passing notes in walking bass, we now have a whole chord which uses that idea of passing over notes that are not diatonic to the key to reach the next chord with a smoother stepwise motion.. And because they are unstable, we have to be careful with them (I.e don't linger on them too long unless we want that flavour or use them as a V Chord which is more unstable by nature).. Would that be somewhat correct? 

Yes.

The caveat being that need to be careful that any extension you add doesn't clash badly with other instruments (unless I suppose you want that sound...), so if someone is playing a 9th, adding a b9th might not work very well.

Also sometimes the altered extension is part of the melody, so isn't really open for negotiation.

Branshen

Thanks all for the education! Stay tuned for my upcoming thread on slash chords!

Funkfingers

Jalapeno said:

with slash chords - everything after the slash is for the bass player to deal with  

Or the pianist.


Some of these chord names are a direct result of a full band song arrangement being reduced to Piano-Vocal-Guitar staff for music publishing purposes. Chances are, no one instrument within the full band arrangement is playing the chord named on the PVG manuscript.

Roland

It would be boring if they did

Branshen

Funkfingers said:

Jalapeno said:

with slash chords - everything after the slash is for the bass player to deal with  

Or the pianist.


Some of these chord names are a direct result of a full band song arrangement being reduced to Piano-Vocal-Guitar staff for music publishing purposes. Chances are, no one instrument within the full band arrangement is playing the chord named on the PVG manuscript.

I am interested in slash chords for the purposes of composing. In band situations, I always leave the slash roots notated to the bass/pianists. No reason to stretch my fingers when someone else can play it more easily!

Branshen

Right. So I had a go on my keyboard and this has opened up new worlds to me. I feel completely free to experiment with notes (as long as I keep the most fundamental chord tones), especially when playing a dominant V. 

Jalapeno

Bullseye !