Buying a Vintage Fender

Barnezy

I’m considering buying a pre-CBS 60’s Fender Stratocaster. The intention is it will be an investment that can be enjoyed and then given to my son on this 21st birthday in 18 years time, for him to either sell or keep. 

So where can I get unbiased advice on buying something like this? The budget will be up to £15k. What level of instrument should I be aiming for? Are there any obvious things to look out for? Where is the best place to search?

There have been a few come up on this forum recently, but unfortunately I’m not knowledgable enough on this to make an informed decision. The prices also don’t seem to align as one that was all original was asking for £10k, whereas another refinished example with parts changed is only £2k less. 

KDS

For advice, you could do worse than have a chat with vintage and rare in Bath.
Are you looking for an investment or something to play for next 18 years? I’m no expect but I wouldn’t expect much return on 15k on vintage fender in 18 years time, for a number of reasons.

rico

@ATB_Guitars is probably the place to go!

bgmartinsbridge

If you want the best online info, go to guitarhq. 

Every element of vintage guitars /parts described. 

lovestrat74

Lucky boy! Hope he likes music 

Barnezy

KDS said:

For advice, you could do worse than have a chat with vintage and rare in Bath.
Are you looking for an investment or something to play for next 18 years? I’m no expect but I wouldn’t expect much return on 15k on vintage fender in 18 years time, for a number of reasons.

Something to play. As long as it tracks with inflation, I’d be happy. What makes you think there isn’t much upside in them now?

Strangefan

Pop that cash in a decent isa that will probably get you more return. 

thebreeze

To begin with I think you'll get the most helpful advice and experience from the members on here.  I'm sure you'll get helpful pointers from dealers and shops but they will also have a vested interest in selling you stuff.

The bottom line is that nothing will help more than you doing your own homework and trying to become as familiar as possible with the ins and outs (quite literally) of pre CBS Fenders.  This may take a bit of time but is worth it.  Books, videos, talking are all helpful.  If you're planning on buying a pre CBS Fender they are potentially the easiest guitars for people to have tampered with or to try and pass off as something they're not.  Just be cautious but don't be put off as they are a joy and the right guitar can be found.

Very generally a refinish will halve the value of the guitar.  This can be useful though if you think you are looking for a guitar you'd like to gig and play.  This explains in part the pricing you mention above.  The year is also important, some are more popular than others but they generally go up in price the older they are, therefore in general a '65 will be at the cheaper end and a '54 will be the most expensive.  The jump can be quite considerable between years though.

On your budget I would also consider going to the States and bringing one back where your choice will be much wider.  However, again you will have to really do your homework on the CITES side of things, especially where Brazilian rosewood fretboards are involved. 

Barnezy

Strangefan said:

Pop that cash in a decent isa that will probably get you more return. 

That’s already covered. This is something that can be enjoyed, whilst retaining its value.

Neil

Agree with the ISA  idea, a sensible selection over 15 years and you'll do OK.

Obviously the vintage Strat is really for your benefit  . Your son may not be interested, my three boys aren't, and who knows how the vintage guitar market will go?

Very speculative IMO. 

KDS

Barnezy said:

KDS said:

For advice, you could do worse than have a chat with vintage and rare in Bath.
Are you looking for an investment or something to play for next 18 years? I’m no expect but I wouldn’t expect much return on 15k on vintage fender in 18 years time, for a number of reasons.

Something to play. As long as it tracks with inflation, I’d be happy. What makes you think there isn’t much upside in them now?

There has been interesting discussion on the forum regarding vintage fenders, fakes, originality, pricing, ive learnt a lot and tended to stay out of the conversation as there are more knowledgeable people on here than me. But my take on it here is that it is simple market rule of supply and demand, as time goes on less people play guitar and less people collect guitars..... yes guitarist collections are getting bigger, but how big can a collection get before it becomes a burden. I’ve 8 electrics, 2 resos and an acoustic, and I’m trying to slim down.
less people playing, more guitar are on market, price goes down accordingly. I’m sure quite a few people disagree, but it’s just my take on it.
btw close friend of mine has two 61 strats and 63 Tele, and I’d like to get one myself, but price is to rich for me

lovestrat74

KDS said:

Barnezy said:

KDS said:

For advice, you could do worse than have a chat with vintage and rare in Bath.
Are you looking for an investment or something to play for next 18 years? I’m no expect but I wouldn’t expect much return on 15k on vintage fender in 18 years time, for a number of reasons.

Something to play. As long as it tracks with inflation, I’d be happy. What makes you think there isn’t much upside in them now?

There has been interesting discussion on the forum regarding vintage fenders, fakes, originality, pricing, ive learnt a lot and tended to stay out of the conversation as there are more knowledgeable people on here than me. But my take on it here is that it is simple market rule of supply and demand, as time goes on less people play guitar and less people collect guitars..... yes guitarist collections are getting bigger, but how big can a collection get before it becomes a burden. I’ve 8 electrics, 2 resos and an acoustic, and I’m trying to slim down.
less people playing, more guitar are on market, price goes down accordingly. I’m sure quite a few people disagree, but it’s just my take on it.
btw close friend of mine has two 61 strats and 63 Tele, and I’d like to get one myself, but price is to rich for me

Well the supply of vintage guitars cannot increase so it's all about the demand

bgmartinsbridge

What's the view on exchange rates?

I know a few people who went to the USA when it was 2-1 dollar pound.
Filled their boots with vintage gear.

If you're thinking investment then that's worth pondering. 

KDS

lovestrat74 said:

KDS said:

Barnezy said:

KDS said:

For advice, you could do worse than have a chat with vintage and rare in Bath.
Are you looking for an investment or something to play for next 18 years? I’m no expect but I wouldn’t expect much return on 15k on vintage fender in 18 years time, for a number of reasons.

Something to play. As long as it tracks with inflation, I’d be happy. What makes you think there isn’t much upside in them now?

There has been interesting discussion on the forum regarding vintage fenders, fakes, originality, pricing, ive learnt a lot and tended to stay out of the conversation as there are more knowledgeable people on here than me. But my take on it here is that it is simple market rule of supply and demand, as time goes on less people play guitar and less people collect guitars..... yes guitarist collections are getting bigger, but how big can a collection get before it becomes a burden. I’ve 8 electrics, 2 resos and an acoustic, and I’m trying to slim down.
less people playing, more guitar are on market, price goes down accordingly. I’m sure quite a few people disagree, but it’s just my take on it.
btw close friend of mine has two 61 strats and 63 Tele, and I’d like to get one myself, but price is to rich for me

Well the supply of vintage guitars cannot increase so it's all about the demand

Yes that’s my point, demand is dropping and will continue to do so. Guitar stock is being kept in collection of older generations. As those collections are freed up, more stock becomes available 

Iamnobody

lovestrat74 said:

KDS said:

Barnezy said:

KDS said:

For advice, you could do worse than have a chat with vintage and rare in Bath.
Are you looking for an investment or something to play for next 18 years? I’m no expect but I wouldn’t expect much return on 15k on vintage fender in 18 years time, for a number of reasons.

Something to play. As long as it tracks with inflation, I’d be happy. What makes you think there isn’t much upside in them now?

There has been interesting discussion on the forum regarding vintage fenders, fakes, originality, pricing, ive learnt a lot and tended to stay out of the conversation as there are more knowledgeable people on here than me. But my take on it here is that it is simple market rule of supply and demand, as time goes on less people play guitar and less people collect guitars..... yes guitarist collections are getting bigger, but how big can a collection get before it becomes a burden. I’ve 8 electrics, 2 resos and an acoustic, and I’m trying to slim down.
less people playing, more guitar are on market, price goes down accordingly. I’m sure quite a few people disagree, but it’s just my take on it.
btw close friend of mine has two 61 strats and 63 Tele, and I’d like to get one myself, but price is to rich for me

Well the supply of vintage guitars cannot increase so it's all about the demand

Mr Harrison and Son disagree with that statement...

Sassafras

lovestrat74 said:

KDS said:

Barnezy said:

KDS said:

For advice, you could do worse than have a chat with vintage and rare in Bath.
Are you looking for an investment or something to play for next 18 years? I’m no expect but I wouldn’t expect much return on 15k on vintage fender in 18 years time, for a number of reasons.

Something to play. As long as it tracks with inflation, I’d be happy. What makes you think there isn’t much upside in them now?

There has been interesting discussion on the forum regarding vintage fenders, fakes, originality, pricing, ive learnt a lot and tended to stay out of the conversation as there are more knowledgeable people on here than me. But my take on it here is that it is simple market rule of supply and demand, as time goes on less people play guitar and less people collect guitars..... yes guitarist collections are getting bigger, but how big can a collection get before it becomes a burden. I’ve 8 electrics, 2 resos and an acoustic, and I’m trying to slim down.
less people playing, more guitar are on market, price goes down accordingly. I’m sure quite a few people disagree, but it’s just my take on it.
btw close friend of mine has two 61 strats and 63 Tele, and I’d like to get one myself, but price is to rich for me

Well the supply of vintage guitars cannot increase.

The Harrison father and son team manage somehow.

thebreeze

No one knows what things will be like in 20 years time, which is part of your thinking (unless you're Reece-Mogg who's told us we'll all be worse off for at least 50 years).  However, I would say there aren't many investments you can use day after day, have fun and creativity with and still (all things taken together) have a reasonable stab at making something back on it.  My own view is that there will always be a demand for these guitars even in the West but obviously loads of people vehemently disagree with me.  So far so good though.  I view them a bit like antiques in that way and it's true that the bottom has fallen out of the antiques market in general.  However, in certain eras or certain types of antiques the market is as strong or stronger than it's ever been.

To answer your question I go for the best one you can afford.  Personally, I'd go for an original finish over a refin.  I think they're easier to sell and it's easier to ensure that they haven't been tampered with generally.

bgmartinsbridge

Interesting points about old guitars being held by old people/ collectors. And that supply can't increase. 

Roll back 10 / 15 years and eBay was full of early to late seventies strats and teles, and a fair few sixties. Where have they all gone and what happens when these collectors, who hoovered them all up, drop off their perch?

Appreciate that young and middle aged people do use and want them but at a guess I'd say that 80% of these guitars are now being held by old folk in their collections as a nice addition to their isas :-) 

And all the really bad early ones have been broken up or several put together to make 'really nice' ones. 

p90fool

I bought my '63 Strat when it was 19 years old and half knackered, so be careful how much you play it for the next 18 years if you want a return on your investment!

15k should get you a very good guitar with excellent provenance in this day and age, although it's very hard to prove anything with Strats. 

Just as an example, I bought my particular Strat in March 1982 from a local guitar teacher, who told me he'd bought it from a local farmer in around 1975.The farmer told him he'd bought it new in London complete with the Selmer case the UK imports came with. He also had it refinished, and the outer scratchplate and tuners replaced by John Birch in the early 1970s.

There ya go, that's my sales pitch.

Actually I sold it two years ago, and left it with Vintage & Rare in Bath to strip it and examine it. They found that every single detail of the guitar matched my story perfectly, but although my story happens to be true there is simply no way I could prove that all those parts weren't thrown together from spares last week and that I lied about the whole thing. 

Treat every guitar with suspicion, and every guitar story as exactly that, a story.

jacksparrow

Invest in a gibson instead, being glued in neck's less chance of a bitsa stratocaster or tele

tomajoha

jacksparrow said:

Invest in a gibson instead, being glued in neck's less chance of a bitsa stratocaster or tele

Agreed, buying a vintage gibson is a lot less risky in this day and age