Buying a Vintage Fender

bgmartinsbridge

Find a friend who knows vintage guitars inside and out - or research research research.

And don't trust dealers. Sounds awful I know. 

Barnezy

It is worrying this whole "dont trust dealers stuff". Are there really that many fakers out there? 

bgmartinsbridge

It's not necessarily fakers, it's something slightly wrong that may not be said! 

bloomer

I looked into the same idea a little and concluded the chance of getting something that wan't what it was purported to be was too high. Do a search on the gearpage and the threads on this topic you'll find there will probably make you think twice about getting a strat. Prices before the recession were a fair bit higher than they are even now so the incentive to fake was definitely there. I remember reading a piece that guitars4u wrote about how in the 80s when pre CBS strats were considered just old guitars people did all kind of horrible mods to them but do you ever see these come up for sale? They've all been converted back now with non original parts and passed off as the real deal. 

gringopig

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guitars4you

richardhomer said:

My advice would be to proceed with extreme caution. 

I’ve owned and handled a lot of pre-CBS Strats and ‘think’ I can tell a real one. But I wouldn’t trust my own judgement enough now to drop the price of a car on one. A Gibson 335 (or variant) is much less ‘fakeable’ - that’s where I’d suggest looking if you want to be sure you’ve got the real deal.

My issue as well - At 10/15K then I'd be scared about what I was buying - I'm more content at 5-8K when they say it is a refin but even then I'd not be rushing into it

Strangefan said:

Pop that cash in a decent isa that will probably get you more return. 

Would love looking at my ISA book on the 2nd Jan every year to see a small increase !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ICBM

It's Fake Or Fortune for guitars, basically. Personally, I would not now be interested in spending that sort of money on a vintage Strat - it's just more than the guitar is worth as a guitar, and all the difference is due to the 'vintage value' which is essentially purely down to collectability. If there's even the slightest proof found that it's not completely genuine, it's suddenly worth a *lot* less.

thebreeze

gringopig said:

if it's in the UK or EU you won't have to go through the hassle of dealing with CITES and especially with Brazilian rosewood regulations as all pre-CBS Stratocasters have Brazilian rosewood fretboards.

Will Brexit change things vis a vis the EU?  Also only ‘60’s pre CBS are rosewood, the ‘50’s are maple.  I think some of the ‘65’s and possibly even a few 64’s used Indian rosewood.

bloomer

I'd get this special http://www.davidjpym.com/page396.html

ICBM

bloomer said:

I'd get this special http://www.davidjpym.com/page396.html

Those have a nasty habit of the neck falling off!

Neil

ICBM said:

I'm not an investment advisor . But I would be *very* wary of spending that sort of money on one vintage Fender - or even Gibson - if you're not an expert and know exactly what you're buying. A possible exception would be something like a 50s Les Paul Custom, which might be just about within your budget in 'player grade' condition - and are hard to fake, compared to a Fender.

I would spread your investment/risk - buy three or four guitars, not one. Firstly that makes it less likely that you've put all your eggs in one basket regarding originality (bearing in mind some fakes are very good indeed) and which brands/models might be desirable in twenty years - and secondly means you will be paying closer to the *real* value of them as guitars, rather than the inflated value purely due to 'vintage' status. (ie the price you would have to pay for a new, Custom Shop or small company equivalent.) These guitars are also less likely to be faked, because there is less money in it for the faker.

For fifteen grand I would buy something like an early 60s Jazzmaster, a late-60s Tele Thinline or Bigbsy Tele, a 50s Les Paul Junior, a 60s Gretsch or Rickenbacker, a 60s Martin or Gibson acoustic, or some combination like that. Those are all proper vintage guitars and are unlikely to go down in value, in fact as the 'standard' vintage models get further out of reach for most buyers they're likely to go up - or you could take a chance and include a modern guitar... you never know what might happen with those - for example original '85/'86 PRSs are now worth a lot, if I'd bought the '85 Whale Blue Custom I could have had in about 1990 for a grand I would have done pretty well by now.

This is great advice.

Just as with equities, don't put all your eggs in one basket.

A much sounder proposition, and think of the fun you would have playing three or four really nice vintage guitars!

Neil

guitars4you said:

Strangefan said:

Pop that cash in a decent isa that will probably get you more return. 

Would love looking at my ISA book on the 2nd Jan every year to see a small increase !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Over fifteen years it would of course be an equity ISA not the measly cash variety.

In a decent speculative fund you could probably double or treble your money over that time period. 

RaymondLin

Don't buy a guitar for the purpose of investment.  If that is your goal then a guitar is not a good way to invest.  It is unsafe in a lot of ways, theft, damage and even fashion.

If you put the £15k into an index fund then for an average 7% return then you should get over £50k after 18 years.

£50k is the amount your Fender needs to beat in 18 years.  I mean its already 50 years old, another 18 years is not even double its age.

On one hand you can leave your son a Guitar, or you can leave him an expected £50k in stock when he turns 21.  I am sure he will be just as happy getting his birth year custom shop Fender and 50k in stock.  It will cost you about the same.

GuyR

Barnezy said:

It is worrying this whole "dont trust dealers stuff". Are there really that many fakers out there? 

As others have said, the absence of "butchered in the '70s and '80s" strats for sale suggests that it is wise to look closely at any prospective purchase.

When buying expensive vintage, I always buy on a week's approval and have the guitar properly inspected by an expert during that time, with a written report, in addition to a detailed, unequivocal receipt from the dealer.

If you are buying as a consumer, with no major worry about an investment angle, You can have some real fun with £15k.

ATB is a good place to start.

RiftAmps

@Barnezy I'm actually in the same boat as you. I've been on the hunt for an early '52 Goldtop for around 18 months now. I'm not worried about resale or investment but simply finding THAT guitar which I can pass on to my daughter when I die. I inherited some money from a relative which was unexpected, so want to put a relatively small portion of that into my holy grail guitar rather than blow it on miscellaneous shite.

I have enquiries placed in at both Vintage and Rare in Bath, and ATB in Cheltenham. I know both of the owners and trust them 100%. When a suitable guitar arrives in stock I'll get a phone call informing me and I can decide if I want to proceed.

SteveRobinson

ICBM said:

bloomer said:

I'd get this special http://www.davidjpym.com/page396.html

Those have a nasty habit of the neck falling off!

The neck join looks like it's had a bit of movement from the lacquer cracks all around it?

p90fool

Regarding the lack of butchered Fenders around these days there are a couple of factors at play. Their modular design means you can replace a Floyd Rose routed body with another one. 

All this parts juggling obviously leads to fewer guitars overall as the messed-with parts are binned, but means that the remaining guitars are are all now "original" again.

Obviously they're not really, but the parts are real so everyone's happy. 

The other factor involved in there being a suspiciously large number of original Fenders these days is the huge numbers of guitars imported from the US. 

When I was a teenager there were four pre-CBS Fender guitars and one pre-CBS Precision Bass in my small Welsh town, and they ALL had battered, original Selmer cases, indicating that they were bought new in this country. Nowadays Fender cases are far more common, showing that way more pre-CBS guitars have arrived in more recent years. 

So the number of good guitars does seem suspicious sometimes, but there can often be a plausible explanation for it. 

guitars4you

RaymondLin said:

Don't buy a guitar for the purpose of investment.  If that is your goal then a guitar is not a good way to invest.  It is unsafe in a lot of ways, theft, damage and even fashion.

If you put the £15k into an index fund then for an average 7% return then you should get over £50k after 18 years.

£50k is the amount your Fender needs to beat in 18 years.  I mean its already 50 years old, another 18 years is not even double its age.

On one hand you can leave your son a Guitar, or you can leave him an expected £50k in stock when he turns 21.  I am sure he will be just as happy getting his birth year custom shop Fender and 50k in stock.  It will cost you about the same.

I'm not an investment expert but I take on board your point - But most of us have a hobby, interest etc that we wish to spend funds on - With many such hobbies and the product in question will end up with little value, if any - So to buy, own, play a 62 Strat for 15 years and get more back for it than you played for it isn't a bad option - Then add to that the whole pleasure and experience of ownership

The question I might ask is what do you do with the £52688.09 after 15 years ? - I also want to enjoy life and need funds for that purpose

RaymondLin

guitars4you said:

RaymondLin said:

Don't buy a guitar for the purpose of investment.  If that is your goal then a guitar is not a good way to invest.  It is unsafe in a lot of ways, theft, damage and even fashion.

If you put the £15k into an index fund then for an average 7% return then you should get over £50k after 18 years.

£50k is the amount your Fender needs to beat in 18 years.  I mean its already 50 years old, another 18 years is not even double its age.

On one hand you can leave your son a Guitar, or you can leave him an expected £50k in stock when he turns 21.  I am sure he will be just as happy getting his birth year custom shop Fender and 50k in stock.  It will cost you about the same.

I'm not an investment expert but I take on board your point - But most of us have a hobby, interest etc that we wish to spend funds on - With many such hobbies and the product in question will end up with little value, if any - So to buy, own, play a 62 Strat for 15 years and get more back for it than you played for it isn't a bad option - Then add to that the whole pleasure and experience of ownership

The question I might ask is what do you do with the £52688.09 after 15 years ? - I also want to enjoy life and need funds for that purpose

That's why I said why are you buying a vintage guitar.  If its for investment then a guitar is not the way to go.  If it's to play a nice guitar then it probably isn't the way to go.  If its just playing then it is definitely not the way to go.

How much value do you place on the investment aspect will depend on the guitar that you buy.  

CloudNine

As Guitars4you says above, as a guitarist it's not the worst way to tie up some cash. Probably best not to view it as a true investment, maybe will break even, or maybe will lose a bit in the long run, who knows, but as he said I would definitely place main value on the enjoyment to be had while owning it. All the talk of ISA's is kind of irrelevant, if someone wants to own and play a vintage guitar.

On the subject of refins, I spent ages in the last few years looking at them with a view to buying something, but man it is hard work trying to assure yourself of originality, total rabbit hole, I could never get to a stage where I felt comfortable dropping the cash, but then I really don't have the required expertise.