A Juice pedal instead of a Gain or Drive pedal?

lukedlb

I feel some of us have been suffering from overdrive GAS search fatigue, when in fact we should be searching for a 'Juice' pedal.
Gain staging is part of this problem as seen by members using fantastic drive pedals into driven amps without any success. What I would like to propose and ask help in identifying is JUICE vs DRIVE.

For the sake of simplicity, we have a guitar going into a light driven valve amp.
3 types of pedals (no modulation or repeat, although they do provide elements of the 3 in their application):
1. Overdrive
2. Gain
3. Juice

Overdrive into overdrive is like overlapping two 'sounds' where the latter further distorts the former based on its own character.
Gain is pushing a boosted signal into the amp's pre amp. It includes boost and EQ.
Juice is the interaction between the player (the guitar) and the pedal. This includes compressors and more.

I've noticed that overdrive pedals include elements of all 3, down to distortion, volume and clipping. Combined, it could be said they produce 'Feel'. Many players have a range of overdrive pedals, not for the gain staging as such, more down to the feel under the fingers each has.

Vintage 'clean' amps enjoy FX pedals, especially those FX of the 60s and 70s. Recent amp builders especially understand that the amps should incorporate that little extra that pushes them to perform to those expectations with beautiful full-range cleans and dedicated amp drive. My own experience with my Redplate RP50R eliminated a list of pedals as they made no difference: EQ, Klone, Compressor, Boost, Lead-boost, and Reverb. The amp already provided. It was especially apparent with the Klone, a pedal I use for its Clean to warm up and balance the signal; weirdly, there was hardly any difference on/off into the Redplate.

GAS does not abate, especially for the abundance of FX on the market. So what could I use? How can I sound better? The feel inside classic drive pedals such as the tube screamer or Blues breaker is probably part of the success of the Duellist and others. However, I don't need another drive, yet I do like the feel they offer, the support they provide.

So what is 'feel' down to? Compression? Clipping? EQ? What else is missing? What else contributes to 'feel'? And what pedals are out there that provide 'Juice'?

Thorpy's team medic plus fat general?

My main Juice pedal is actually a fuzz face. Riding the guitar's volume, the clean has just the right amount of mids; a thicker punchier tone, which with increased guitar volume provides drive, muscle and explosive fuzz when maxed.

Thoughts on Juice and FX suggestions?

Sassafras

Fuzz Factory does it all but is a right pain to dial in.

lukedlb

Please bear in mind I know little about fx. This thread also hopes to clarify and identify those elements that I call juice. 

smudge_lad

I've recently been loving boost pedals into my amps, instead of overdrive pedals. As you've mentioned above, the fell of the amp is totally different. I feel like OD pedals remove the THUMP that a cranked amp can give. Adding bass on an OD pedal doesn't even help, as it starts to sound a bit flubby. Yes it adds bass, and the sound becomes larger, but not the feel.

I've been getting great results with my amps on the edge of breakup, "juiced" with an RC Booster/Heavy Water into a Fat General, into the amp. Glorious!

lukedlb

smudge_lad said:

I've recently been loving boost pedals into my amps, instead of overdrive pedals. As you've mentioned above, the fell of the amp is totally different. I feel like OD pedals remove the THUMP that a cranked amp can give. Adding bass on an OD pedal doesn't even help, as it starts to sound a bit flubby. Yes it adds bass, and the sound becomes larger, but not the feel.

I've been getting great results with my amps on the edge of breakup, "juiced" with an RC Booster/Heavy Water into a Fat General, into the amp. Glorious!

I used the chase tone boost in a similar fashion even though it only very lightly boosts the amp. I felt it added components to the amp, adding sweet highs and helping fuzz breakup even more. Still, it didn’t change the feel, more the tone. 

lukedlb

Perhaps pre-amps? Not the driven pre-amps; rather the way they process the guitar signal influencing the following:

squish vs definition 
Pick response

lukedlb

Naturally, the biggest influence is the guitar itself and the pickup settings. Going from strat tones to tele tones to humbucker with vol and tone pot variations determine feel/tone/juice more than a pedal can offer. 

lukedlb

Would the pettyjohn predrive be a good example?

lukedlb

Effectrode firebottle?

lukedlb

Double tracking such as with the Strymon Deco. Does an analogue double tracking exist?

Seziertisch

lukedlb said:

Would the pettyjohn predrive be a good example?

The Predrive is one of my favourite pedals. It adds some extra clarity and depth (for lack of a better description). I have the original version which has a separate germanium boost which can be blended in, it is very “amp like” and is great for adding that little bit of hair to clean/cleaner sounds. And then there are the high and low pass filters, which allow you a great deal of flexibility in tailoring any other pedals that come after it to your rig. The guitar in a band context is essentially a mid-range instrument, excess treble and bass frequencies are problematic, the filters allow you to get rid of those. 

lukedlb

Seziertisch said:

lukedlb said:

Would the pettyjohn predrive be a good example?

The Predrive is one of my favourite pedals. It adds some extra clarity and depth (for lack of a better description). I have the original version which has a separate germanium boost which can be blended in, it is very “amp like” and is great for adding that little bit of hair to clean/cleaner sounds. And then there are the high and low pass filters, which allow you a great deal of flexibility in tailoring any other pedals that come after it to your rig. The guitar in a band context is essentially a mid-range instrument, excess treble and bass frequencies are problematic, the filters allow you to get rid of those. 

So it's an EQ pedal? There's more to it than that, right?

Seziertisch

lukedlb said:

Seziertisch said:

lukedlb said:

Would the pettyjohn predrive be a good example?

The Predrive is one of my favourite pedals. It adds some extra clarity and depth (for lack of a better description). I have the original version which has a separate germanium boost which can be blended in, it is very “amp like” and is great for adding that little bit of hair to clean/cleaner sounds. And then there are the high and low pass filters, which allow you a great deal of flexibility in tailoring any other pedals that come after it to your rig. The guitar in a band context is essentially a mid-range instrument, excess treble and bass frequencies are problematic, the filters allow you to get rid of those. 

So it's an EQ pedal? There's more to it than that, right?

It’s a preamp with some drive and some eq function. There are some demos on YouTube. Check them out

lukedlb

A strymon Deco offers tape saturation and double tracking. These could thicken the clean tone before they it the amp/drive.

Seziertisch

Otherwise, I own a Chasetone Secret Pre, which is also great. Does some phase shifting stuff which really focuses the mids. Great for taking the edge off an abrasive fuzz or getting a digital delay to sit in to the sound. Not that expensive either

Wazmeister

Luke, great thread mate, and very interesting...

It echoes my own journey across the last few years. Playing live is a completely different thing to 'home' playing, imho.

I'm fortune to own a brilliant amp in the Carr Mercury V, and I've learnt/realised that pre-amps and boosts can work really well (as 'juice', as you call it). The difficulty has been getting a clean boost without adding too much gain...

This small board has proved to be very effective. The NB3 is a revelation;

TTBZ

Interesting thread. I think I’ve wanted what you describe as a “juice” pedal for a while as when playing lower gain classic rock stuff, I often find an overdrive (even a TS) to add to much gain and saturation where really I just want more sustain and thickness on the leads so it feels less “sticky” to play. Just messing around on the Helix the SP Compressor seems to do a nice job of this. 

hubobulous

Koko Boost is a great option for this - 2 options of boost or mid boost gives excellent results

Matt_McG

I used to have a Durham Sex Drive clone on my board for this (not really an original, the Fuzzdog Libido Boost clone). Unless you really crank the gain, it just does a good job of making a bit louder, adding some light compression/sustain, and adding a really addictive sparkle to the top end and upper mids. Neck pickup tones sound instantly better with it on.

I don't use it now with the HX Stomp, as I can get the same effect in other ways, but it's a nice pedal.

HAL9000

Not 100% sure what you mean by 'juice' but I'm guessing that you're thinking of something that fattens things up without colouring or distorting your sound too much. If I've got that right then I'd suggest the Rockett Blue Note could be worth a look. I've also heard very good things about the Thorpy FX Peacekeeper (but not actually heard one myself).

RandallFlagg

I find that a good Klone such as a Tumnus works well into an overdriven amp. Turn the gain to zero and bring up the volume to boost your signal as far as you want, adjust the tone for the right level of bite and then slowly bring up just a hint of the gain to thicken with warmth and mids, you don't need much for a great boost to an already overdriven amp.