Deluxe Reverb: Will I regret trading for a Princeton?

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  • fretmeisterfretmeister Frets: 23906
    Helix.
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  • roberty said:
    I had a Princeton and found it too loud for home and too quiet for stage...
    I definitely found this. The Jettenuator sounded fine with it though, you don't need a fancy attenuator as that works fine. But,,,
     I'm assuming at this price the cab sim is crap. 
    Yes

    Please note my communication is not very good, so please be patient with me
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  • KoaKoa Frets: 120
    I’d keep the DR and look for a Champ!

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  • robertyroberty Frets: 10893
    edited October 2019
    bbill335 said:
    roberty said:
    I had a Princeton and found it too loud for home and too quiet for stage...
    this says to me that, with the right speaker, it could be ok for either but not really both.
    It had a 10" celestion alnico gold fitted, 98dB so pretty loud

    Whenever I’ve A/B’d a Princeton and a Deluxe, I’ve always thought the Princeton was the better sounding amp. That said, if you ever get back into gigging, the Princeton might not work out so well.
    I did A/B'd them in the shop; and preferred the Deluxe. no accounting for taste!
    The deluxe sounds way better when pushed than the Princeton imo. My Princeton was only good until the point where it started breaking up and got farty real fast after that

    @colourofsound this is classic forum suggestion (ie not what you asked at all) but I'm much happier with my thr10 at home than I have been with anything that has a full sized speaker

    (Fwiw I eventually sold my deluxe and got a 74 pro reverb. Much better spread on stage)
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  • roberty said:
    bbill335 said:
    roberty said:
    I had a Princeton and found it too loud for home and too quiet for stage...
    this says to me that, with the right speaker, it could be ok for either but not really both.
    It had a 10" celestion alnico gold fitted, 98dB so pretty loud

    Whenever I’ve A/B’d a Princeton and a Deluxe, I’ve always thought the Princeton was the better sounding amp. That said, if you ever get back into gigging, the Princeton might not work out so well.
    I did A/B'd them in the shop; and preferred the Deluxe. no accounting for taste!
    The deluxe sounds way better when pushed than the Princeton imo. My Princeton was only good until the point where it started breaking up and got farty real fast after that

    @colourofsound this is classic forum suggestion (ie not what you asked at all) but I'm much happier with my thr10 at home than I have been with anything that has a full sized speaker

    (Fwiw I eventually sold my deluxe and got a 74 pro reverb. Much better spread on stage)
    The new THR looks pretty appealing. Worth considering!

    and yes, the Deluxes are so directional haha
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  • olafgartenolafgarten Frets: 1648
    Have you tried a Blues Cube? 
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  • TrudeTrude Frets: 914
    I may be able to contribute to this discussion shortly.... I've recently re-acquired my old DRRI (gigged it for years, sold it to a mate and recently bought it back).  I've had it recapped and serviced so it's good to go, with a well broken-in Weber speaker.

    I also just took a mint PRRI in a trade deal.  Always fancied one, but never had an excuse to pick one up till now.  It sounds lovely at home volumes for sure.  I have the luxury of a soundproofed music room so I can wind them both up to gig level and directly compare.  I'll see if I get a chance to that this weekend (though it's a 5-gig weekend for me so I may struggle to find time)

    For most of my gigs lately I've been using a Quilter TB200 and their teeny 1x10 cab, using the line-out into IEMs, so stage volume isn't a big consideration.  I will bring the PRRI out though and see how it balances in the room vs drums and the other guy's AC10.  

    The DRRI I tend to keep for the Stones tribute gigs, where a bit more stage volume and obviously the look are both important.  We're always miked up though, and wedge monitoring is the norm.  The next one of those I have isn't till November, but I'll see how the PRRI fares there and will report back (assuming I still have it!)
    Some of the gear, some idea

    Trading feedback here
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  • KeefyKeefy Frets: 2272
    My Princeton Reverb (RI) quickly runs out of steam against a drum kit and other instruments, as evidenced by the open mic I played at last night. I’m intending to use it on a no-drums acoustic-based gig next weekend, so I’ll report back afterwards.
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  • jaymenonjaymenon Frets: 804
     Could you get someone to install an audiotaper potentiometer for your volume control? The increase in volume will be much more gradual - and the 2 - 4 range will be more useable.

    The Princeton won’t sound as nice and not much quieter either. 10” speaker, same 2 x 6V6 valves.
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  • jaymenonjaymenon Frets: 804
    edited October 2019
    And if you want to get quiet and you have a Pc / Mac - try out ScuffhamAmps S-Gear. Really very nice at low volumes and doesn’t cost the earth. Also comes with a free 2 week trial -  last time I checked 
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  • TrudeTrude Frets: 914
    Just finished a pub gig with the PRRI. I had it just below 4 on the dial and it was easily loud enough alongside drums, keys and another guitar. I would've liked to have it up a bit louder than that in fact, but it would've been too much for the room. Impressed!
    Some of the gear, some idea

    Trading feedback here
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 31367
    The Deluxe has a fair bit more headroom for gigging than the Princeton and they're both too loud to get really cooking at home, so on that basis, as much as I love Princetons the Deluxe wins. 

    The biggest factor for home playing though maybe that the Deluxe has a higher noise floor, but that depends on the individual amp in my experience. 
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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 26745
    Volume questions aside, I have never played a DR I didn't like more than every PR I've tried. They both need hefty attenuation to get them sounding their best at home.
    The Assumptions - UAE party band for all your rock & soul desires
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  • menamestommenamestom Frets: 4641

    Feel free to try a swap with me for a while.
    I’m in Manchester and have a PRRI.

    Mines a bit different though, uprated heyboer OT, uprated Hammond PT (because the original blew).
    caps all uprated (F&T etc, the Fender ones are shite)
    speaker change

    Kind of makes for a mini Deluxe Reverb, plenty loud enough for playing with a band, much cleaner that a stock PRRI.  
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  • munckeemunckee Frets: 12254
    bbill335 said:
    roberty said:
    I had a Princeton and found it too loud for home and too quiet for stage...
    this says to me that, with the right speaker, it could be ok for either but not really both.
    I had a 68 princeton, they are really bassy even with the bass set to 0, not necessarily in bad way but a loud way.  I changed the speaker for a jensen alnico and made loads of difference, sounded more like a 65.

    I liked it at home volumes, broke up about 5 with the jensen which was too loud if other people were in the house but if they were out not so loud that neighbours called the police.

    I sold it and bought a silverface champ which had even nicer cleans and perfect home volume but no reverb or tremolo.  If you can bite the bullet cost wise a rift PR6 might be the perfect home amp, or I have considered a Tone King Falcon which has built in attenuator.

    For me personally I ended up moving on the SF champ because I prefer the sound of my tweed champ to both of them.
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  • menamestommenamestom Frets: 4641
    p90fool said:
    The Deluxe has a fair bit more headroom for gigging than the Princeton and they're both too loud to get really cooking at home, so on that basis, as much as I love Princetons the Deluxe wins. 
    It's not really necessary IMO, they both take padals well, just stick a Timmy in front of a Princeton and it sounds great at all volumes.   I always go the our studio and crank the amp and think actually sounded pretty good at home!
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71951
    It's really remarkable how many different opinions there are about these amps... too loud, not loud enough, takes pedals well, doesn't take pedals well, too bassy, too flubby...

    My take on all these things is that they both sound quite similar and really great at very low volume - I really don't get the 'too loud' thing at all, you just turn the volume knob down, they have a good pot taper (it is logarithmic/audio). Obviously this is for a clean sound, both are too loud to crank up into power-stage overdrive at home unless you have no family.

    The Princeton takes pedals slightly better at low volume than the Deluxe's Vibrato channel because that has a bright cap on the volume control which can make them sound scratchy - but the Deluxe is better on the Normal channel since there is another bright cap in the reverb section which the Princeton also has - you can jumper to the Vibrato channel with the treble turned right down for reverb and tremolo if you want. (By 'takes pedals' I always mean the pedal being used to generate distortion, not push the amp into it.) Neither of them is too bassy at all, they both have a lovely full deep tone even at very low volume. You *can* turn the bass up too far, but it's usually perfect at around 3-4.

    When overdriven they sound much more different - the technical reason is that the phase inverter circuit is totally different in both amps, the Princeton has a 'cathodyne' type (like the Tweed Deluxe) and the Deluxe a 'long-tailed pair' (like all larger Fender and most other amps), so the Princeton generates more of its overdrive from the phase inverter and sounds tighter and more compressed, whereas the Deluxe is looser and more open-sounding. The Princeton also has a bias-modulation tremolo rather than the Deluxe's opto-coupled one, which makes the Princeton's more interactive with the power stage overdrive.

    (You can reduce the Princeton's phase inverter distortion by doing the 'Stokes mod', but I've never actually tried that on a reissue so I don't know how difficult it is on the PCB.)

    At high volume I don't think either of them have enough clean headroom for a band - I've always found Deluxes frustrating, the clean tone is a bit too thin and lacking punch, and then they go flubby and farty at just too low a volume for me... and I don't play loud. Fitting them with 6L6s and/or a solid-state rectifier helps, but I still find a Vibrolux better. I've never even tried playing a gig with a Princeton, I don't think it would work at all for me unless it was fully mic'ed, and even then I'm not sure. And I did gig with a couple of original Super Champs years ago - sometimes just one - so it's not just the 10" speaker and 6V6s that are the problem. A Princeton with a 12" speaker sounds more like a slightly bigger Princeton than a Deluxe.

    As always, your mileage may vary (drastically :) ).

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  • ICBM said:
    It's really remarkable how many different opinions there are about these amps... too loud, not loud enough, takes pedals well, doesn't take pedals well, too bassy, too flubby...

    My take on all these things is that they both sound quite similar and really great at very low volume - I really don't get the 'too loud' thing at all, you just turn the volume knob down, they have a good pot taper (it is logarithmic/audio). Obviously this is for a clean sound, both are too loud to crank up into power-stage overdrive at home unless you have no family.

    The Princeton takes pedals slightly better at low volume than the Deluxe's Vibrato channel because that has a bright cap on the volume control which can make them sound scratchy - but the Deluxe is better on the Normal channel since there is another bright cap in the reverb section which the Princeton also has - you can jumper to the Vibrato channel with the treble turned right down for reverb and tremolo if you want. (By 'takes pedals' I always mean the pedal being used to generate distortion, not push the amp into it.) Neither of them is too bassy at all, they both have a lovely full deep tone even at very low volume. You *can* turn the bass up too far, but it's usually perfect at around 3-4.

    When overdriven they sound much more different - the technical reason is that the phase inverter circuit is totally different in both amps, the Princeton has a 'cathodyne' type (like the Tweed Deluxe) and the Deluxe a 'long-tailed pair' (like all larger Fender and most other amps), so the Princeton generates more of its overdrive from the phase inverter and sounds tighter and more compressed, whereas the Deluxe is looser and more open-sounding. The Princeton also has a bias-modulation tremolo rather than the Deluxe's opto-coupled one, which makes the Princeton's more interactive with the power stage overdrive.

    (You can reduce the Princeton's phase inverter distortion by doing the 'Stokes mod', but I've never actually tried that on a reissue so I don't know how difficult it is on the PCB.)

    At high volume I don't think either of them have enough clean headroom for a band - I've always found Deluxes frustrating, the clean tone is a bit too thin and lacking punch, and then they go flubby and farty at just too low a volume for me... and I don't play loud. Fitting them with 6L6s and/or a solid-state rectifier helps, but I still find a Vibrolux better. I've never even tried playing a gig with a Princeton, I don't think it would work at all for me unless it was fully mic'ed, and even then I'm not sure. And I did gig with a couple of original Super Champs years ago - sometimes just one - so it's not just the 10" speaker and 6V6s that are the problem. A Princeton with a 12" speaker sounds more like a slightly bigger Princeton than a Deluxe.

    As always, your mileage may vary (drastically :) ).
    I agree with this 100% - a much better informed and detailed version of what I briefly said upthread. The two questions I always ask are: what kind of music are you playing, and are you going to need to play un-miced? 

    Assuming a ‘normal’ pop/rock band where the guitar needs to be heard, for me a Princeton won’t cut it, nor an AC-15. A DeLuxe will barely work either. All of these are great amps but I think for live work you need 30W minimum - a Vibrolux, HRD, Blues DeLuxe are all portable and take the worry about headroom off the table. 

    I’ve played all of them at home happily too - obviously at nowhere near gig volume, but they still sound good turned right down. 
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  • KeefyKeefy Frets: 2272
    ^^^ As ever there is an exception to the rule, namely the 15W Matchless Lightning. Mine has never (in 10 years) been not loud enough. I believe that Matchless remove some of the doping from the speaker, making it much more sensitive.
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  • I’ve not had an issue with the Deluxe not being loud enough at gigs - in fact at one gig in a theatre, a band used it and I was at the desk sound checking. I ended up having to get them to turn the Deluxe down because I had it muted in the PA and it was still too loud!

    i find it is incredibly directional though; I suppose that’s just guitar amps for you.
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