Being 'in the room' with modellers

stratman3142

I went to see a great band recently that had a great sound and they went down really well. So in theory there's no problem.

 Except I felt like I was at a rock disco instead of listening to a real live band. We were in a pub, but it sounded like I was listening to an album track or a live gig in a stadium. There was an electronic drum kit, a rhythm guitarist with Variax and a lead guitarist with a Helix going into the PA. I appreciated the musicianship but I felt disconnected from the music, which didn't sound like it was 'in the room'.

 I've nothing against modellers and use a Helix (fx only) going into an HRD IV. So I'm happy to use modellers, but don't feel ready to make the full leap to a fully modelled sound without an analogue valve amp in the loop. Based on what I recently heard I wonder how much full use of modellers into a PA will connect with the room for a 'real' live experience. Maybe it's down to choice of reverb and ampsim.

soma1975

Ooh they are not gonna like that. 

phil_b

stratman3142 said:

I went to see a great band recently that had a great sound and they went down really well.

is that not what really counts

octatonic

Look into my eyes, look into my eyes, not around the eyes....

thecolourbox

Well for those of us who prefer not to be deafened by being in the boom line of an amp and who enjoy better mixed and almost "recording-like" sound then this sounds great

TheBigDipper

Hmmm...  I think I'm with the OP on this one. I don't like "silent stage" gigs as an audience member. Never played one as the band, FWIW. I suspect I'd not know at a big gig, but at a small venue I‘ve never liked it.

stratman3142

thecolourbox said:

Well for those of us who prefer not to be deafened by being in the boom line of an amp and who enjoy better mixed and almost "recording-like" sound then this sounds great

That's definitely a positive. There was also the perception of them having a high energy sound without actually being excessively loud.

I think my first post came out more negative than intended, because I can definitely see the positives of having an almost studio quality live sound in a pub and I might go down that route myself.

Obviously it's different at a big gig where everything is mic'd up anyway. Maybe I just need to adjust my expectations of a small pub gig sound.

thecolourbox

TheBigDipper said:

Hmmm...  I think I'm with the OP on this one. I don't like "silent stage" gigs as an audience member. Never played one as the band, FWIW. I suspect I'd not know at a big gig, but at a small venue I‘ve never liked it.

But a lot of that is possibly just preference based on what you got used to when you started attending our playing gigs, when that tech maybe was not available or good enough. So a gig in that setup sounds normal to you and there's nothing wrong with that. Whereas to me for example, I'm more used to it sounding that way as I've not been to many gigs but listened to 100s of live gig recordings where it takes on that kind of character much more. So I quite like it.

And I absolute hate having to try to hone my ear in the right part from terrible monitors when there is background noise (some level of misophonia) so having the mix in my ear is much more preferable

digitalscream

As much as I love modellers, and as much as I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Helix user...I still maintain that direct-to-PA is the worst way to use a modeller. It can sound good if you've got an outstanding sound engineer on the desk who knows what they're doing with modelled signals, but ultimately...I think they've got the amp side of it absolutely nailed, but for some reason modelled cabs just aren't there yet. I suspect it's because the physics of speaker cones and cabs are just more complicated in ways that need to be understood to make it sound "real". Modeller -> neutral power amp -> cab is the way forward for me, it's the best of all worlds.

With that said, the OP's complaint is probably more to do with the electronic drums than anything. If there's one thing guaranteed to suck the life out of a band's sound - whether live or recorded - it's digital drums. I have no idea why, but the tech just isn't there yet.

stratman3142

digitalscream said:

...With that said, the OP's complaint is probably more to do with the electronic drums than anything. If there's one thing guaranteed to suck the life out of a band's sound - whether live or recorded - it's digital drums. I have no idea why, but the tech just isn't there yet.

That may be the most significant factor.

sw67

We use both acoustic drums and electronic drums depending on the venue. We still use backline with vocals and a bit of guitar going through the pa. I am using helix / powered speaker and the other guitarist blues cube ( moving to helix soon )   

Some pubs we play are the traditional music pubs where the punters like and want a loud band but some just want live music and still be able to hold a conversation. 

Its being able to do both just as well that gets us repeat booking without any effort - we are fully booked for next year.

It took me around 6 months and various 3rd party presets and irs but my helix sounds pretty much the same as my amp miked up through the pa

fastonebaz

I know in my band we're always craving that perfect tone perfect balance etc etc,  however I've come to realise that I quite enjoy fighting feedback,  managing my muting properly and generally wrestling with a high volume amp behind me,  it forces me to try harder to play tighter and more precise compared to when at home recording with sims.

That said,  it would be nice to have a slightly lower overall band volume sometimes as some punters clearly seem to get blasted

steven70

sw67 said:

Some pubs we play are the traditional music pubs where the punters like and want a loud band but some just want live music and still be able to hold a conversation. 

I don't get the point of a having a live band if people are going to want to talk over it. 
Totally respect the skills to be able to play those gigs. And the fact that some people obviously do want that.

I just don't get it...

Roland

Petrol heads like the smell of tyre smoke and hot oil. We like the sound of loud amps and traditional cabinets. I grew up on 100w Marshall’s and 4x12s. Given the choice I’d rather listen to a band well mixed through a PA, at a volume which doesn’t damage my hearing.

sw67 said:

Some pubs we play are the traditional music pubs where the punters like and want a loud band but some just want live music and still be able to hold a conversation. 

A lot of our repeat bookings come because the bar staff can hear the customers, and the customers stay longer and drink more because they can talk to each other.

sw67

steven70 said:

sw67 said:

Some pubs we play are the traditional music pubs where the punters like and want a loud band but some just want live music and still be able to hold a conversation. 

I don't get the point of a having a live band if people are going to want to talk over it. 
Totally respect the skills to be able to play those gigs. And the fact that some people obviously do want that.

I just don't get it...

We are not talking low volume - just a sensible volume in a venue where a good few punters are sitting under or just in front of our pa speakers. 

thecolourbox

If I'm at a proper gig then if prefer to hear music not the knobs around me shouting but at a pub I too would prefer to have the option talk to (and listen to)t people I was attending the pub with as well, for certain

ICBM

I don't think it's anything to do with modellers - and definitely nothing to do with valves - but it is to do with putting everything through the PA vs individual amps.

A live band in a small room with backline-only - if done well - or very light PA reinforcement, still sounds better to me for traditional rock-type music than a silent stage with everything through the PA. But it's pretty easy to do it badly as well.

I do think the PA-only approach works better for acoustic-based bands or more modern non-rock music.

TheBigDipper

thecolourbox said:

TheBigDipper said:

Hmmm...  I think I'm with the OP on this one. I don't like "silent stage" gigs as an audience member. Never played one as the band, FWIW. I suspect I'd not know at a big gig, but at a small venue I‘ve never liked it.

But a lot of that is possibly just preference based on what you got used to when you started attending our playing gigs, when that tech maybe was not available or good enough. So a gig in that setup sounds normal to you and there's nothing wrong with that. Whereas to me for example, I'm more used to it sounding that way as I've not been to many gigs but listened to 100s of live gig recordings where it takes on that kind of character much more. So I quite like it.

And I absolute hate having to try to hone my ear in the right part from terrible monitors when there is background noise (some level of misophonia) so having the mix in my ear is much more preferable

You're right, of course. Totally subjective. Neither of us are saying we're right, just that we prefer different things. 

I also vastly prefer to practice at home with a real speaker in the room rather than over monitors or in headphones. Even if I'm just doing scales and plugged into a Fly 3. :-) 

PolarityMan

thecolourbox said:

Well for those of us who prefer not to be deafened by being in the boom line of an amp and who enjoy better mixed and almost "recording-like" sound then this sounds great

Interestingly my first thought was that they prob just needed to turn things up

I admit even the best electronic drum kits dont have the same vibe as an acoustic kit live though.

Roland

ICBM said:

I don't think it's anything to do with modellers - and definitely nothing to do with valves - but it is to do with putting everything through the PA vs individual amps.

This. There are two factors at play. Firstly, with amps on stage there’s acoustic coupling between guitar and speaker. Not just flat out Feedback, but a liveliness in the sound. When going through to PA I like a monitor speaker that’s close/loud enough for this.

Second factor is that our brains can distinguish the directions of individual sounds, and focus in on particular instruments. Whereas, with a PA, the best we can get is “panned mono”.

p90fool

It's definitely the drums in my experience. The modellers with a real kit would probably EQ-ed differently in order to cut through, probably with a more mid-heavy, dare I say it boxy sound that's a bit more rock 'n' roll.

Electronic drums tend to leave a sonic space which enables everyone else to be smoother, more scooped and with all harshness (including the good stuff) removed. 

I did a three day session at Monnow Vale a couple of years ago where the drummer used a top-of-the-range Roland e-kit and it was the most depressing session of my life, despite the skill of all the pros involved.