10 000 hour rule?

octatonic

Philly_Q said:

mart said:

soma1975 said:

Meh, at 3 years I was very advanced for having played 3 years. At nearly 30 years I am so behind it's unreal!

Same for me. After over 30 years of playing I’m about at the level you’d expect of someone who’d been playing for 3 years.

Hmmm, this seems to be a common pattern...

Pat Metheny talks about this quite a lot- the danger period for a lot of guitarists is 3-5 years, because you are already good at one or two things and the temptation is to keep wiring on the things you re good at, weather than the things you suck at.

The way you get really good is to work on things you suck at.

This is why I keep putting pressure on myself to keep evolving as a musician, taking on other instruments, other genres, different tunings. 

phil_b

well Im a complete beginner so I am just bashing the thing to myself trying to make it sound recognisable. I would like get to a standard where I could play to friends and family so im not expecting miracles. I was not contemplating giving up but it does seem to take along time to get past the beginner stage 

mixolyd

phil_b said:

well Im a complete beginner so I am just bashing the thing to myself trying to make it sound recognisable. I would like get to a standard where I could play to friends and family so im not expecting miracles. I was not contemplating giving up but it does seem to take along time to get past the beginner stage 

To continue the 10000 hours metaphor - I’d say it’s possible to get past the beginner stage (can’t hold a tune, can’t finish a tune, can’t stay in time, everything take ages to figure out etc) well within 1000 hours.  EDIT: within a third of that even.

It’s really not about time though: I used to get students who’d been through multiple teachers and still hadn’t got the basics in order because they hadn’t been practicing those basic skills.  Others happen upon ways of practising correctly or have a good teacher right from the start and they sail beyond beginner in no time.

lysander

@octatonic I find your comment about drums being harder than guitar interesting, what makes you say that ?

I play the piano as well as guitar ( and a bit of drums and bass but not as seriously ), in fact I’ve been mainly focusing on piano over the last 10 years, and I find the piano easier.
I say this because ( IMO of course ) sight reading, chords and scales are easier on the piano, and piano technique is more forgiving - on the ( electric - I don’t play acoustic ) guitar it’s really really easy for things to sound shit at the slightest sloppiness in technique, and to me this requires extreme focus and dedication in practicing.

This is in fact part of the reason I tend to play the piano more as I find it’s easier to enjoy myself even if I play half an hour here and there, whereas on the guitar I find it hard to be in a place where I’m reasonably happy with my playing if I don’t play at least 1-2 hours a day every day, which is hard with a full time job, kids etc.

octatonic

lysander said:

@octatonic I find your comment about drums being harder than guitar interesting, what makes you say that ?

I guess it is a combination of 4 limb co-ordination, levels of dynamic and that there is nowhere to hide.
I should clarify that this is my personal experience with drums, I think it is easy to get the basics but much harder to master than guitar.

jpfamps

From my understanding the 10,000 hour hypothesis (a suspiciously round figure) was formulated by observing conservatory classical musicians, who had of course already undergone a selection process. 

The observation was that the more these musicians practised the more capable they got; hardly a revelation in group already selected for ability.

To be a top level classical musician requires tremendous technical capabilities, and I can imagine an intimidating number such as 10,000 hours being in the ball park for an average amount of hours practice.

With top classical musicians I reckon, like top sports stars, you are really operating towards the limits of human capability, and whilst I can marvel at these peoples skills I'm not convinced that the majority of people can achieve that level of performance however long they practice.

That said, the level of ability required to play in the bands I play in is way below that needed to be a top level classical musician, which is fortunate as I reckon I may well have clocked up the requisite 10,000 hours over the last 35 years or so!

Hopefully I have not had 1 hours experience 10,000 times......

Regardless, you should play an instrument because you enjoy it, so enjoy it!

DLM

jpfamps said:

With top classical musicians I reckon, like top sports stars, you are really operating towards the limits of human capability, and whilst I can marvel at these peoples skills I'm not convinced that the majority of people can achieve that level of performance however long they practice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4xCXS_siS8

"People will always need plates!" 

"Orchestras will always need violas!"

*DLM inserts Glenn Fricker bass player joke here and legs it*

Mark1960

phil_b said:

I have just come across this theory and it made me a little depressed.

I am a beginner and if I really need 10000 hours practice to get any good it will take me about 30 years at my currant rate. the problem is at nearly 50 years old should I save myself the frustration and just enjoy music played by others as I have done so up until now.

My understanding of the theory was 10,000 repetitions of the skill not 10,000 hours

darthed1981

It depends a bit doesn't it...?

My personal ambition is to play indie/alternative rock songs to a sufficient standard to gig them, with an aim to maybe one day doing so on the regular.

I've no real ambition to be considered a master of the instrument, I'm pretty happy being a barre chords and pentatonics kind of guy.

That probably means I'll never be a "musician" in some people's eyes, but I'm not sure I give two hoots.

What do you want to achieve, where do you want to get to?

I suspect as others have said, if you want to get into the top 1% of skill for everyone who ever picked up the instrument, you will likely need to put in a lot more than 10,000 hours.

Nikc

10000 hours at an hour a day that's around 27 years at 2 hours circa 13.5 years - how many hours do we really put in and what are we really doing with that time. Doesn't sound to far wrong to me

pmbomb

phil_b said:

I have just come across this theory and it made me a little depressed.

I am a beginner and if I really need 10000 hours practice to get any good it will take me about 30 years at my currant rate. the problem is at nearly 50 years old should I save myself the frustration and just enjoy music played by others as I have done so up until now.

you don't need to be an expert to enjoy playing music. 

10 hours is plenty. learn a couple of simple rockers so you can play then through and you're up and running.

enjoy the journey. there is no destination, except the one we're all headed to.

Jalapeno

To be clear - reading the internet and aimlessly wanking around the fretboard on things you can already do doesn't count towards the 10,000 hours

NelsonP

"Getting there is half the fun" - Fozzy Bear

Ignore Malcolm Gladwell ;-)

darthed1981

Jalapeno said:

To be clear - reading the internet and aimlessly wanking around the fretboard on things you can already do doesn't count towards the 10,000 hours

That's me buggered then

King85

Two great books if anyone wants to read a little more into this are:

Bounce - Matthew Syed

The Sports Gene - David Epstein

They both take slightly apposing views on the subject but are both some of the most interesting books I've read.

Jalapeno

darthed1981 said:

Jalapeno said:

To be clear - reading the internet and aimlessly wanking around the fretboard on things you can already do doesn't count towards the 10,000 hours

That's me buggered then

Me too !

hollywoodrox

King85 said:

Two great books if anyone wants to read a little more into this are:

Bounce - Matthew Syed

The Sports Gene - David Epstein

They both take slightly apposing views on the subject but are both some of the most interesting books I've read.

Great books . Also 

the talent code -Daniel coyle 
peak - anders Ericsson and Robert Poole 
outliers -gladwell
talent is overrated -Geoff Colvin 
the inner game of music - Barry green 
the music lesson victor wooten
effortless mastery -kenny Werner 
the practice of practice - Johnathan Harnum 
the little book of talent Daniel coyle

plus a guy on here who is called “Octatonic “ I think , he has like a Swiss flag avatar. He seems very wise , and I have often been inspired by things he posts on practice etc.

one for instance

“ it isn’t how much you practice ,it’s WHAT you practice when you do.
2 hours a day is all you need to get to a professional level of playing within 4 years (roughly)
The reason some people never get there is they are simply practicing the wrong way .

he seems to post some real pearls of wisdom which always seem quite motivating . I hope he reads this and shares some thing else with us.

i did see some of his practice schedule which involved , scales , arpeggios, drop chords (he must be a jazz player) etc  I am sure his schedule could be adapted to whatever goals a particular person has for themselves. Although what suits some does not suit others , a proven routine could help greatly compared to blindly stumbling along if you are stuck.

i find the above books inspiring as it shows what can be done with repeated practice ,the 10 000 hours is for people who are virtuoso type players so imagine what could be achieved in a fifth or quarter of the time with focused practice. 

There is hope for everybody 

hollywoodrox

mart said:

And it’s talking about people reaching the absolute top of their game - Beatles, Mozart, Steve Jobs etc.

If, like most of us, your main aim is to enjoy yourself, then that might come after just a few dozen hours, or even after a few minutes depending on your attitude. 

Spot on , well said

hollywoodrox

phil_b said:

I have just come across this theory and it made me a little depressed.

I am a beginner and if I really need 10000 hours practice to get any good it will take me about 30 years at my currant rate. the problem is at nearly 50 years old should I save myself the frustration and just enjoy music played by others as I have done so up until now.

You have one advantage of being able to manage practice and available time more efficiently and make it count than when you were a teen  . Even a couple of 20 minutes focused practice sessions a day could yield some acceptable skills for playing some songs rhythm and lead .
plus each new achievement / improvement will spur you on to progress more 

hollywoodrox

I see Octatonic has already chipped in with some gems .