Learning to ‘noodle’?

BRISTOL86

Bit of a random thread but hopefully makes sense. I’ve been playing on and off for a few years now, have had a handful of lessons along the way, but ultimately had no real cohesion to what I’ve learned. 

A lot has been learned by doing, in a haphazard way, and while I’ve made decent progress in some areas, I’m really quite a beginner in others. I’ve done very little formal learning of scales / patterns etc.

One thing I’ve always been massively envious of are people who can just pick up a guitar and play something cohesive that sounds good musically. 

I can learn a phrase or a lick or a bit of a real song and play it to a reasonable standard (sometimes) but if you put a guitar in front of me and said ‘play something’ (that wasn’t a real world piece of a song I’ve learned) I’d not have a clue where to start. 

For this reason I hate going into guitar shops because I freeze up and can remember like 2 licks that I learned 3 years ago and haven’t played since  

I love watching things like Guitar Paradiso  where they just sit there playing very musically but probably with very little pre planning of exactly what they’re playing. I’m in awe of people that can just grab a guitar and start bashing out cool sounding stuff - so that’s ultimately where I want to get. 

I don’t want to be one of those people that just plays other people’s songs and that’s as good as it gets (not that there’s anything wrong with that) but that just feels like I’m learning to copy something and not actually learning to develop as a musician

Given that I’m a big fan of Mayer and the Hendrix/SRV kind of style, I’m guessing learning the minor pentatonic in all positions is going to be a good start, but any tips on actually taking that theory and translating it into reality is much appreciated. 

Any resources or learning materials you can point me towards will be great. 

Thanks!

Bennyboy-UK

This fits the bill  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYZqMy2E_MA

axisus

I'm not the best person to ask, but here's what helped me with improvising - I learned 'box' positions for the pentatonic scale, but found that I kind of stayed in one box a lot of the time and it sounded boring. On a rare attempt to learn something from TAB, I had a go at Dave Gilmour's Money solo, and I found it interesting how he flits around the 'box' positions without really lingering at one. It helped me to learn to move across the fretboard rather than just up and down.

I kind of think that my improv sounds terrible as I look up to better people all the time, but if I play for non-musicians or guitarists not yet at my level then they think I'm amazing (!) so something must be improving somewhere ...

Branshen

Do you know the structure of a blues progression?

If not, that's a good place to start, considering your influences. After that, you could learn to noodle and solo on top of a blues progression using pentatonics.

roberty

Definitely learn all the positions for blues/pentatonic if you want to play blues style.  Start by extending the positions you know into the next and previous positions.  A good exercise is to pick a pair of strings at a time and play scale patterns horizontally up and down the neck

Knowing how chords are related will help a lot (I IV V VIm), after this you can tie them back to modes.  It's good to have a sense of where the chord tones are in a scale while you're playing

BRISTOL86

Branshen said:

Do you know the structure of a blues progression?

If not, that's a good place to start, considering your influences. After that, you could learn to noodle and solo on top of a blues progression using pentatonics.

As in like knowing where the I / IV / V chords are in a 12 bar blues for example? 

Yes I do, but when it comes to playing something over it I find I just end up playing playing in one box of the scale and I sound like I’m playing a scale rather than playing music. 

I guess it’s just practice. I’m gonna learn all 5 positions of the minor pent but I think the key to improving is going to be in learning how I can link theM

roberty

BRISTOL86 said:

I guess it’s just practice. I’m gonna learn all 5 positions of the minor pent but I think the key to improving is going to be in learning how I can link theM

The horizontal exercises are good for that. If you can come up with patterns for this then that will help you break you out of scale patterns too

Have you tried ascending and descending 3s, 4s and 5s? eg descending 3s in E starting from third fret high e string in open position would be G E D - E D B - D B A - B A G - A G E

steven70

Pick a manageable solo (Hendrix or SRV) that you like and learn the 5 blues boxes in that key. Then get the TAB for that solo, have a listen and try and hear what they are doing and see how the licks fit into and across the boxes. You'll find most blues stuff is mainly 'licks' strung together with 'improvised' linking passages.

Harvey Vinson's 'Lead Guitar' is still a good book for this, if a little dated.

Re 'Guitar Paradiso' etc, it may look spontaneous but these guys are pros and part of that is making it look effortless for the camera

blobb

Play with other people or, failing that, a 'Band in a box' type pedal. These are a great way of getting your noodle chops in without ever worrying about making mistakes.

So.....Trio +, lay down a two chord progression and let it learn (any chords, set it a challenge!). Now you have a solid backing track to work with. Add noises that sound nice over the top. There is no right / wrong. Eventually you start to recognise certain moves that always work, some that never do, some that make you sad, some happy. You can play fast, slow, melodic or discordant.

You probably now start looking for 'rules' or structures to help you make decisions. This can be anything you want: theory helps, a tutor may also help but what helps me more than anything is to train your ears. Listen to as much different music as possible, break it down in your head into what sounded good / bad and you'll find the more your brain processes this type of info, the more instinctive you become at making the decisions. 

Then go to the jam night at the pub. Wait for someone to start a progression and hey presto, you can jam along.   

I would also add this: record yourself. Pref video if you can but there is nothing better than watching or listening to yourself in action. If you watch it and feel like an idiot, next time you might decide to avoid that flashy twiddle section.

I've been playing for over 30years, been in a few bands, written quite a lot of non mainstream stuff and if anyone hands me a guitar and asks me to play a song I haven't a clue. But ask me to make something up or jam over someone else then I'm in business. I did work some songs out once but all forgotten now. In one ear out the other I'm afraid.

BluesLover

Explore the blues guitar unleashed website, there's lots of good free stuff in his blog. I'm doing his acoustic blues course, which you have to pay for, and it is fantastic.

poopot

We have this going over in making music...

you don’t need to enter but feel free to download the backing and noodle away... it’s in C and it the same 12 bars repeated.

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/165944/5-min-one-take-noodle-challenge#latest

Brad

BRISTOL86 said:

Yes I do, but when it comes to playing something over it I find I just end up playing playing in one box of the scale and I sound like I’m playing a scale rather than playing music. 

I guess it’s just practice. I’m gonna learn all 5 positions of the minor pent but I think the key to improving is going to be in learning how I can link theM

The answer to your question is in bold. I hate to say it but no amount of learning new shapes will get you where you want to be. Granted different shapes will create different phrasing options but you'll just end up stuck in the same way, but just in a different box. 

The way to playing music is through learning music, not scales. I am a big advocate of learning the fretboard - it's super important, but scales are only part of the answer. If you're into Hendrix/Mayer/SRV et al, learn some of their solos or even some lines as that is where the music is, not in a scale shape. That is what those guys did themselves, and I tell you what, those guys could make more music out of just two notes of a pentatonic shape than the rest of us having the whole neck to choose from. The more you do this, gradually these things will start creeping into your playing without you even realising, but coming out in your own way.

This is what I do with my students. Get them to improvise in position, with the whole shape available to them. Then restrict things to just two strings (so 4 notes) or even just one string if needed. Discuss repetition, call and response, singing phrases etc. Rather than running up and down the scale (as they do when the whole position is initially available), the restrictions force them to think so much more musically and they really hear and feel the difference straight away. I'll get them to use a different set of strings in the position for a while, then three strings then gradually allow the whole position. Then apply this concept to different positions. 

This stuff is difficult and takes time so stick with it. There is no quick fix as it's as much a readjusting of the mind as anything and that's hard. Remember, my pentatonic box is the same as yours, it's what we do with them that makes us unique. Good luck!

bbill335

Practice. Listen to different stuff. Figure out how the different keys relate to each other (circle of 5ths/4ths/3rds kind of stuff but you don't “think” it when you play). Play along to records.  learn solos over weird progressions. Practice some more. Find that rarest of things, decent people willing to jam with you. Join a band playing music you wouldn't normally listen to. Bring your own thing to that band. Practice some more. 

Brad

@BRISTOL86 You mention about learning in a very haphazard way over the years. I recommend getting some lessons to give a frame work and structure to your learning.

MentalSharps

You may want to ignore this as I am a gigantic noob with barely any time under my fingers, but I have been thinking about this for myself as to the best way to get to my personal goal - to be able to play whatever I feel/hear in my head - and it seems that learning to play/think/hear intervals is the key.

Maybe it depends on the individual but I'm certain at least for myself that learning scale shapes would lead me to playing algorithmically - more like a computer game/puzzle than artistic expression. Could be doing a disservice to some
musicians but this is what a lot of music that I don't like the sound of feels like to me - not rooted in anything real/true/emotional but only ever referring back to itself, intellectual but ultimately arbitrary and devoid of any feeling - masturbation (collective or individual) rather than art.

I guess intervals are still a form of shapes and patterns though so probably still need to find a way to transcend beyond them. But I guess (again someone correct me if I'm full of shit) they are the atomic level of western music and as close to pure creation as is realistic a starting point. Whichever route one goes though, I imagine that given enough time your ear will take over and you just end up playing what you hear/imagine in your head.

robinbowes

I try to hear the tune in my head before attempting to play it on the fretboard.

R.

BeardyAndy

Scales. Get them down and it'll start to click.

That's all my noodling is, moving around the various pentatonic positions with slides, bends and hammerons for effect. don't get too fixated on what and where, if it sounds good then play it.

Get yourself a looper pedal, lay down a simple 3 chord backing and have at it. You'll soon learn what sounds right and where.

viz

robinbowes said:

I try to hear the tune in my head before attempting to play it on the fretboard.

R.

That’s the one. IMO. You have to have in idea of what your tune’s sounding like, and going to sound like - where it’s heading, not just be sitting in the note of the instant. 

It’s not driven from the head (theory) or the hands (technique) - it really comes from the heart. That’s what I think anyway. 

Roland

Let me give you an alternative approach. I’m self taught. This was many years ago, before concepts like pentatonic boxes were talked about. The only knowledge that I had was that twelve notes made an octave.

Take a simple song that you’d like to noodle over. Listen to it, and identify the different sections: intro, verse, chorus etc. Decide which section(s) you’d like to noodle over. While those sections are playing pick up your guitar and find notes which sound good to your ear. Play them with what ever timing feels good. Experiment with different methods of playing those notes: bends, slides, hammers, pull offs if you can manage. Experiment with playing the notes in different sequences, identifying those notes which you can come to rest on, and those which sound unresolved.

At this stage you’re just playing melodic fragments, and leaving spaces in between to listen and to think. Don’t worry about that. Listen to some solos that you like. Pick out and learn particular phrases. As you progress you will be able to join things up and play longer phrases. It’s much more important to play notes which sound good, in an interesting manner, than notes which conform to established theories. This starts to give you the “tune in your head” that @viz and @robinbowes are talking about.

Some time later you can read up on musical theory, and work out how the notes you’ve been playing fit with chords and scales. Neither Bohemian Rhapsody nor the last movement of Beethoven’s ninth symphony fitted established principles.

BRISTOL86

Thanks guys. Some brilliant advice in this thread!  

LastMantra

I wouldn't worry too much about the theory. Get your technique sorted. Those players used wide vibrato/bends lots of hamer-on's/pull-off's. Minor pentatonic, a few double stops, and you're off.
Play up and down the neck too. Like play a wee lick on the 2nd fret, then play it on the 14th. Throw some slides in.
Go crazy! Have fun!

Turn it to 11!