Hillsborough verdict

jonnyburgo

So the fella that opened the gates that directly contributed to the 96 deaths (by his own admission) is not guilty. While the court found that the 96 dead was the result of unlawful acts, no one is to blame. Can't imagine how the families must be feeling. RIP to the 96.

sweepy

From what I remember about the Documentary and subsequent TV news items on it the whole incident is a lot more nuanced than a case of opening gates as there were so many contributing factors that led to the final catatastrophe

jonnyburgo

sweepy said:

From what I remember about the Documentary and subsequent TV news items on it the whole incident is a lot more nuanced than a case of opening gates as there were so many contributing factors that led to the final catatastrophe

Yes that's true.and I do realise there isn't on big bad wolf figure in this. It looks like this won't be brought to trial again now though. So they will never feel that they have justice.

sev112

And you know, I wouldn’t be surprised if the same thing happens at Grendel as well.  People generally don’t do bad things deliberately, and hence proving negligent “inactions” is really difficult.

i very much feel for the victims families 

hywelg

sev112 said:

And you know, I wouldn’t be surprised if the same thing happens at Grendel as well.  People generally don’t do bad things deliberately, and hence proving negligent “inactions” is really difficult.

i very much feel for the victims families 

And justice shouldn't be about punishing someone for a mistake. For trying to lie about it afterwards , yes. But we ask a lot of all emergency services and armed forces and making a mistake shouldn't result in lawsuits. We can only be sure about the consequences with the benefit of hindsight and justice should be that the lessons are properly learned and acted upon to prevent a recurrence.

sev112

hywelg said:

sev112 said:

And you know, I wouldn’t be surprised if the same thing happens at Grendel as well.  People generally don’t do bad things deliberately, and hence proving negligent “inactions” is really difficult.

i very much feel for the victims families 

And justice shouldn't be about punishing someone for a mistake. For trying to lie about it afterwards , yes. But we ask a lot of all emergency services and armed forces and making a mistake shouldn't result in lawsuits. We can only be sure about the consequences with the benefit of hindsight and justice should be that the lessons are properly learned and acted upon to prevent a recurrence.

Absolutely 

fretmeister

That guy has now been through 3 trials. First 2 had the juries unable to come to a verdict and now not guilty.

Thats 3 separate juries who could not convict on the evidence presented.

3 attempts for the state to prove their case over 20 years. 3 different legal teams. 3 different juries and 3 different judges.

its over. He’s not guilty.

That doesn’t mean the police aren’t liable in civil law, but the standard of proof is much higher for criminal law and after 3 attempts it’s clear the standard was not reached.

DarnWeight

sev112 said:

hywelg said:

sev112 said:

And you know, I wouldn’t be surprised if the same thing happens at Grendel as well.  People generally don’t do bad things deliberately, and hence proving negligent “inactions” is really difficult.

i very much feel for the victims families 

And justice shouldn't be about punishing someone for a mistake. For trying to lie about it afterwards , yes. But we ask a lot of all emergency services and armed forces and making a mistake shouldn't result in lawsuits. We can only be sure about the consequences with the benefit of hindsight and justice should be that the lessons are properly learned and acted upon to prevent a recurrence.

Absolutely 

Wasn't the Lakanal House fire in 2009 very similar?  Seem to remember cladding was a big contributory factor in the spread of that fire, and that recommendations were made following the fire that were never acted upon.

So, yeah, in an ideal world lessons would be learned, but sometimes, not.  I guess the next stage of the Grenfell enquiry will cover this at some length.

Funkfingers

fretmeister said:

That's 3 separate juries who could not convict on the evidence presented.

the standard of proof is much higher for criminal law and after 3 attempts it’s clear the standard was not reached.

Some people need to believe that Duckenfield personally (and intentionally) crushed people to death. There seems to be an ongoing unwillingness to accept that the lethal force was other football spectators. 

Obviously, the situation would have been alleviated if there had been no crowd fencing at Hillsborough. On the other hand, why was the fencing necessary to begin with?

steer

Years of cover ups. Police changing their own officers statements to apportion blame to the victims, and the government and newspapers were complicit in the spread of lies. 

The TV interviewed a guy this morning who's brother died at Hillsbrough. The last conversation he had with his mother on her deathbed was whether or not his dead brother was a yob who contributed to his own death and the deaths of 95 others. That is the result of the despicable lies spread by the media and police all those years ago, and the cover-ups that have gone on since. Perhaps people who buy the Sun newspaper ought to have a think about this when they next go to the newsagents. 

Duckenfield admitted his own guilt in all this during previous hearings. However his barristers backtracked on all his previous admissions during this hearing. Not a great day for justice. The Independent Hillsborough inquiry report sets out what happened quite clearly and where the blame does and does not lie. 

underdog

Funkfingers said:

fretmeister said:

That's 3 separate juries who could not convict on the evidence presented.

the standard of proof is much higher for criminal law and after 3 attempts it’s clear the standard was not reached.

Some people need to believe that Duckenfield personally (and intentionally) crushed people to death. There seems to be an ongoing unwillingness to accept that the lethal force was other football spectators. 

Obviously, the situation would have been alleviated if there had been no crowd fencing at Hillsborough. On the other hand, why was the fencing necessary to begin with?

Are you actually f**king serious? Are you honestly going to blame football supporters after the survivors and families fought 30 years to prove it wasn't drunken fans, or anything other than complete lack of crowd control from the police on the day?

30 years of lies by police and goverment while people grieve their loved ones 

Funkfingers

I did it. Shoot me!

underdog

Funkfingers said:

I did it. Shoot me!

Either you don't realise how insensitive your comments are or you simply don't care, real people died that day, going to watch a football game, not through any fault of their own, the vast majority of them under the age of 30, and then their families had to watch as the dead and their friends were blamed for it.

fretmeister

steer said:

Years of cover ups. Police changing their own officers statements to apportion blame to the victims, and the government and newspapers were complicit in the spread of lies. 

The TV interviewed a guy this morning who's brother died at Hillsbrough. The last conversation he had with his mother on her deathbed was whether or not his dead brother was a yob who contributed to his own death and the deaths of 95 others. That is the result of the despicable lies spread by the media and police all those years ago, and the cover-ups that have gone on since. Perhaps people who buy the Sun newspaper ought to have a think about this when they next go to the newsagents. 

Duckenfield admitted his own guilt in all this during previous hearings. However his barristers backtracked on all his previous admissions during this hearing. Not a great day for justice. The Independent Hillsborough inquiry report sets out what happened quite clearly and where the blame does and does not lie. 

He admitted his ACTIONS at the inquest. That is not the same as admitting guilt.

An Inquest is not a criminal court. The nature of an inquest is completely different and a verdict of unlawful death at an inquest does not mean that that someone involved is guilty of a criminal offence. Inquests do not establish criminal liability.

Don't mash the 2 separate processes together. 

fretmeister

Funkfingers said:

fretmeister said:

That's 3 separate juries who could not convict on the evidence presented.

the standard of proof is much higher for criminal law and after 3 attempts it’s clear the standard was not reached.

Some people need to believe that Duckenfield personally (and intentionally) crushed people to death. There seems to be an ongoing unwillingness to accept that the lethal force was other football spectators. 

Obviously, the situation would have been alleviated if there had been no crowd fencing at Hillsborough. On the other hand, why was the fencing necessary to begin with?

Intent is not an issue in gross neg manslaughter.

Snap

fretmeister said:

That guy has now been through 3 trials. First 2 had the juries unable to come to a verdict and now not guilty.

Thats 3 separate juries who could not convict on the evidence presented.

3 attempts for the state to prove their case over 20 years. 3 different legal teams. 3 different juries and 3 different judges.

its over. He’s not guilty.

That doesn’t mean the police aren’t liable in civil law, but the standard of proof is much higher for criminal law and after 3 attempts it’s clear the standard was not reached.

This, end of.

It's a terrible tragedy, horrendous. I am sure Mr Duckenfield has been tortured by this for 30 years going over what could have been done differently. 30 years, 3 trials, not guilty.

Snap

Funkfingers said:

I did it. Shoot me!

Idiot.

fretmeister

Funkfingers said:

I did it. Shoot me!

That is really crass.

Blaendulais

hywelg said:

sev112 said:

And you know, I wouldn’t be surprised if the same thing happens at Grendel as well.  People generally don’t do bad things deliberately, and hence proving negligent “inactions” is really difficult.

i very much feel for the victims families 

And justice shouldn't be about punishing someone for a mistake. For trying to lie about it afterwards , yes. But we ask a lot of all emergency services and armed forces and making a mistake shouldn't result in lawsuits. We can only be sure about the consequences with the benefit of hindsight and justice should be that the lessons are properly learned and acted upon to prevent a recurrence.

Wise indeed.  When i was working as a doc if i made a serious mistake (usually due to lack of staff, unsafe working, ridiculous crazy busy departments, exhaustion ie system factors) I didnt do it cos i wanted to kill someone!!   

You wont get people to do jobs where lives are at risk if you get done for manslaughter when u make a mistake - and believe me however competent you are u make a mistake

PS Hillsborough was a fucking tragedy and unimaginable.  

ourmaninthenorth

Even though the game wasn't live on the telly I, with many millions others, listened and watched in horror as Des Lynam described the scene.... then the pictures came live as the scale of the thing unfolded. 

One does not forget these things. 

I was a regular attender of matches myself at the time, some of the shit houses that they called football grounds had to be seen to be believed. It was a dangerous bloody business. 

I've never written a single word about Hillsborough. This will be the first and last time I do.

Who's to blame? I Don't know. The institutional cover up however tells me that somebody thought somebody was.

Those that scrapped to have the memories of their loved ones preserved as innocent victims have my undying and unconditional respect. You won. 

One thing for sure, those that have lived with this agony for decades, they definitely weren't to blame. 

I hope they can find some peace; for some of them it is too late, I respectfully suggest for a large number of them it remains highly unlikely. 

The blunt instrument of the law somehow hasn't dulled the spirit of those that stood against the piss being taken. 

I applaud you all. 

UnclePsychosis

Funkfingers said:

I did it. Shoot me!

dickhead of the year nomination right here.