The Matrix is kinda crap

TimmyO

WiresDreamDisasters said:

I will watch Revolutions tonight, and this whole sorry saga will be over.

Reloaded is SO bad - all.setuo for Revolutions which has a cheesy action sequence that I love despite it being cheesy and terrible in many ways. 

LastMantra

Once was enough for me. 

Cols

WiresDreamDisasters said:

I will watch Revolutions tonight, and this whole sorry saga will be over.

You have my sympathies.  You’re like the HarrySeven of terrible films.

earwighoney

Philly_Q said:

I liked the Matrix at the time but I haven't watched it since seeing the sequels because they were both utter shite.  The original might still be good, it might have dated badly but I'll probably never find out.

I like Alien and Aliens, they're both great but different.

Star Wars was great when I was 13 but it's actually a pretty poor film and George Lucas is a hopeless director.

What do you think of the new ones?  I saw the first one and thought it was absolute shite.  Saw a bit of it again when channel surfing and it's aged really badly, not a good sign for a film that came out only a few years ago!

Philly_Q

earwighoney said:

What do you think of the new ones?  I saw the first one and thought it was absolute shite.  Saw a bit of it again when channel surfing and it's aged really badly, not a good sign for a film that came out only a few years ago!

Star Wars episodes VII and VIII?  I haven't seen The Force Awakens, I did see The Last Jedi and didn't hate it anywhere near as much as the fans seem to.  It's OK, better than parts I to III... Revenge of the Sith was so bad I almost walked out after ten minutes.  But I'm really not a fan of the series so perhaps it's not for me to say.

WiresDreamDisasters

digitalscream said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

The whole thing is an allegory for our society, and I find the model presented completely lacking. But I do like guns and trenchcoats tho.

It's not an allegory for our society now, it's an allegory for the state of religion in society 20 years ago.

WiresDreamDisasters said:

The "goodies" in the matrix are so sure of themselves that it kinda sucks. The only person to even contemplate what the matrix actually is ends up bring burned alive by a raygun. And he's painted like a steak lovin' egomaniac tart. Us and them bullshit again.

That's kind of the point - they're so sure of themselves, but they're wrong. Spectacularly. They've swallowed the religious edicts hook, line and sinker and never questioned where they came from, and so their city is mostly destroyed and they're almost wiped out.

Okay, I never really clocked the religious undertones too much. But I just finished Revolutions. And let's say, I noticed it more.

But I think you're dead wrong. If this is an allegory for the state of religion 20 years ago, then it's pure propaganda. The entire series finishes on a sacrifice, maybe two if you count Trinity's death, and it ends on a sunrise with the oracle saying "I believed" - the implication being that we should all believe. The entire point of the series seen in this lens is that we should all rediscover religion and that god isn't dead, and that nihilism has nothing to offer.

Basically I can totally see this entire series as basically a wank born-again Christian propaganda movie. Not sure how I didn't really see it before. Guess the red woman gave me too big a boner.

soma1975

I've read what I feel are quite revisionist essays on the idea that the films represent the gender transition struggles of the Warchowskis. While acknowledging people are looking back on them with hindsight and a 'trans lens' the Warchowskis themselves have never made a case for it being so, other than to say the films are about love. 

Snags

I can't be arsed to look it up,  but there was loads about the religious allegory when the films came out. They're not hugely loved by fundie Christian types because although Neo is a kind of Christ figure, a lot of the rest is off theologically. IIRC it was more of a mash-up of something like Zorastrianism and some pre-Christian non-Judeo stuff.

I just thought it was an ok film with shoe-horned cod-religious hippy shit to try and lend it some gravitas it didn't really have. 

digitalscream

WiresDreamDisasters said:

digitalscream said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

The whole thing is an allegory for our society, and I find the model presented completely lacking. But I do like guns and trenchcoats tho.

It's not an allegory for our society now, it's an allegory for the state of religion in society 20 years ago.

WiresDreamDisasters said:

The "goodies" in the matrix are so sure of themselves that it kinda sucks. The only person to even contemplate what the matrix actually is ends up bring burned alive by a raygun. And he's painted like a steak lovin' egomaniac tart. Us and them bullshit again.

That's kind of the point - they're so sure of themselves, but they're wrong. Spectacularly. They've swallowed the religious edicts hook, line and sinker and never questioned where they came from, and so their city is mostly destroyed and they're almost wiped out.

Okay, I never really clocked the religious undertones too much. But I just finished Revolutions. And let's say, I noticed it more.

But I think you're dead wrong. If this is an allegory for the state of religion 20 years ago, then it's pure propaganda. The entire series finishes on a sacrifice, maybe two if you count Trinity's death, and it ends on a sunrise with the oracle saying "I believed" - the implication being that we should all believe. The entire point of the series seen in this lens is that we should all rediscover religion and that god isn't dead, and that nihilism has nothing to offer.

Basically I can totally see this entire series as basically a wank born-again Christian propaganda movie. Not sure how I didn't really see it before. Guess the red woman gave me too big a boner.

Take it a step further.

The humans believed in this "religion", but it was all foisted on them to keep them under control.

The actual saviour was a human who never really believed the religious hype, but took on the mantle because nobody else would or could. And by throwing away all of the religious bullshit that his peers had swallowed, he saved them all.

When the Oracle says "I believed", it meant that she had faith in people, not some religious pandering - for her there was no religion, because she was on the other side of the religion that the humans believed, the side that was in control.

They're anti-religion films!

Sassafras

The only thing that spoilt Matrix for me were the 2 sequels.

WiresDreamDisasters

digitalscream said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

digitalscream said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

The whole thing is an allegory for our society, and I find the model presented completely lacking. But I do like guns and trenchcoats tho.

It's not an allegory for our society now, it's an allegory for the state of religion in society 20 years ago.

WiresDreamDisasters said:

The "goodies" in the matrix are so sure of themselves that it kinda sucks. The only person to even contemplate what the matrix actually is ends up bring burned alive by a raygun. And he's painted like a steak lovin' egomaniac tart. Us and them bullshit again.

That's kind of the point - they're so sure of themselves, but they're wrong. Spectacularly. They've swallowed the religious edicts hook, line and sinker and never questioned where they came from, and so their city is mostly destroyed and they're almost wiped out.

Okay, I never really clocked the religious undertones too much. But I just finished Revolutions. And let's say, I noticed it more.

But I think you're dead wrong. If this is an allegory for the state of religion 20 years ago, then it's pure propaganda. The entire series finishes on a sacrifice, maybe two if you count Trinity's death, and it ends on a sunrise with the oracle saying "I believed" - the implication being that we should all believe. The entire point of the series seen in this lens is that we should all rediscover religion and that god isn't dead, and that nihilism has nothing to offer.

Basically I can totally see this entire series as basically a wank born-again Christian propaganda movie. Not sure how I didn't really see it before. Guess the red woman gave me too big a boner.

Take it a step further.

The humans believed in this "religion", but it was all foisted on them to keep them under control.

The actual saviour was a human who never really believed the religious hype, but took on the mantle because nobody else would or could. And by throwing away all of the religious bullshit that his peers had swallowed, he saved them all.

When the Oracle says "I believed", it meant that she had faith in people, not some religious pandering - for her there was no religion, because she was on the other side of the religion that the humans believed, the side that was in control.

They're anti-religion films!

I think the problem with these movies is they're so sporadic and make-it-up-as-we-go-along that you could make a convincing argument for them being pro-religion films as well. They're basically throwing a ton of shit at the wall and seeing what sticks.

Who is the actual saviour in your mind?

digitalscream

WiresDreamDisasters said:

digitalscream said:

Take it a step further.

The humans believed in this "religion", but it was all foisted on them to keep them under control.

The actual saviour was a human who never really believed the religious hype, but took on the mantle because nobody else would or could. And by throwing away all of the religious bullshit that his peers had swallowed, he saved them all.

When the Oracle says "I believed", it meant that she had faith in people, not some religious pandering - for her there was no religion, because she was on the other side of the religion that the humans believed, the side that was in control.

They're anti-religion films!

I think the problem with these movies is they're so sporadic and make-it-up-as-we-go-along that you could make a convincing argument for them being pro-religion films as well. They're basically throwing a ton of shit at the wall and seeing what sticks.

Who is the actual saviour in your mind?

Nah, I'm pretty sure the story was written before the first film was made - I didn't get the sense that they were making it up as they went along, more that they skipped a lot of the deeper parts of the mythology they were trying to create in the first film.

In any case...there wasn't a single "saviour" in the religious sense. Ostensibly, the hero of the piece is Neo, but that's not really right either. The Oracle is simultaneously the one who created the Matrix as it was, but also the one who freed humanity from it by setting up the initial conditions to allow the end of the war to happen; as I see it, she lost the battle (the enslavement of humanity) to win overall (peace between machines and humans).

So yeah...the Oracle.

You could also make a case for it being Smith (albeit unintentionally), since he's the one who forces the machines to re-think their approach given that they now know it's possible for an Agent to breach the limits of its own programming and become an existential threat to them in the real world.

Of course, those are views influenced by some of the wider material - the films are only part of it. There's also the Animatrix shorts, and the events following the films which were played out in the MMO (also apparently canon, although I'm not so sure it'll remain that way given that they're making a new film).