Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Sign In with Google

Become a Subscriber!

Subscribe to our Patreon, and get image uploads with no ads on the site!

Read more...

Piezo unpleasantness - is there any excuse for it these days?

What's Hot
TimmyOTimmyO Frets: 7350
Radio 6 is on. Billy Bragg is banging away on some live set thing - complete with pretty brash guitar sound. 

Why is this still a thing? 
Red ones are better. 
0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
«1

Comments

  • Andy79Andy79 Frets: 888
    Great performance wasn’t it. But yeah the sound was awful 
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • mgawmgaw Frets: 5239
    he's more interested in the song probably
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • TheMarlinTheMarlin Frets: 7746
    I can’t bear that sound, sets my teeth on edge. 
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 2reaction image Wisdom
  • FunkfingersFunkfingers Frets: 14324
    It is the nature of the beast. That is what they sound like. They happen to be more convenient to use on stage than magnetic soundhole pickups or trying to stay on mic. 

    Kaman/Ovation popularised piezo systems in the Seventies. Their guitars were already half plastic. It was no surprise when that was exactly what the piezo made them sound like.


    Be seeing you.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11791
    K&K pure mini please

    I use IR modelling on the signal from piezos
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • LewyLewy Frets: 4127
    edited December 2019
    There is absolutely no excuse for it unadulterated...but I think USTs remain the best option for going into something like an Aura or IR.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • GTCGTC Frets: 261
    I've been very pleasantly surprised by the L R Baggs Active Element piezo system on my Brook Tamar - far better and more natural than any other piezo system  I've come across.

    I also prefer the K&K Pure Mini under-bridge transducer system - but it can be prone to feedback, particularly with larger bodied instruments.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 31370
    Even a cheap Zoom acoustic DI can make your bare piezo tone pretty acceptable these days, or at least to the point where your ear wouldn't be drawn to it under the voice of a singer/songwriter. 

    I'm always amazed at how many pros just leave it to the engineer like it's not their problem, but I suppose it's no different to those electric players who don't care what amp is supplied. 

    I would also say, in my experience there are still plenty of BBC radio engineers who do not have the foggiest idea how to EQ a piezo pickup to quickly get an acceptable tone. 
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • Our other guitarist used a pointy Ibanez through the acoustic simulator on his helix the other night and it was more convincing than any piezo I’ve heard. 
    The Swamp City Shakers
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • Chris_JChris_J Frets: 139
    edited December 2019
    Maybe a daft question but why don't the active electronics eq out the quack in all piezo pickup guitars? It seems obvious and would remove the burden on the engineer...
    1reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11415
    Chris_J said:
    Maybe a daft question but why don't the active electronics eq out the quack in all piezo pickup guitars? It seems obvious and would remove the burden on the engineer...

    I think it's easier to do it outboard.  I picked up a TC BodyRez pedal for £50 second hand.  It really helps a piezo equipped guitar.

    I bought that a couple of months before Boss brought out their AD-2 acoustic pedal, when there wasn't much else around unless you wanted to spend lots on the Fishman Aura.  Given my previous experience with TC reliability**, I'd buy the Boss now.



    ** lets just say that in my experience, TC and reliablility go together in a sentence like Pat Butcher and beautiful.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • KeefyKeefy Frets: 2272
    edited December 2019
    I don't care for piezo systems, and use a (very expensive) magnetic soundhole pickup.

    But didn't one of the acoustic guitar manufacturers come up with a system where the piezo element wasn't under massive compressive force all the time, and which allegedly sounded better?

    EDIT: IIRC Bill Bragg also used to have a consistently bog-awful electric guitar sound too.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • Chris_JChris_J Frets: 139
    Keefy said:
    I don't care for piezo systems, and use a (very expensive) magnetic soundhole pickup.

    But didn't one of the acoustic guitar manufacturers come up with a system where the piezo element wasn't under massive compressive force all the time, and which allegedly sounded better?

    EDIT: IIRC Bill Bragg also used to have a consistently bog-awful electric guitar sound too.
    Maybe the Taylor ES2 system?

    I have 2 magnetic sound hole pickups. The Fishman Rare Earth Blend and the Schertler one, both with a mic which you can blend in to add some air and create a more natural sound.

    I prefer both over a piezo type.

    The Schertler is more natural sounding, but, the Fishman has a slightly lower noise floor and deals with feedback better.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963
    edited December 2019
    Chris_J said:
    Maybe a daft question but why don't the active electronics eq out the quack in all piezo pickup guitars? It seems obvious and would remove the burden on the engineer...
    Because the 'quack' isn't just an EQ problem, it's a transient attack and waveform problem.

    The fundamental problem with a piezo pickup is that the waveform it produces is wrong - it produces its peak voltage output when the element is under the most (or least) compression, which is at the *extremes* of the string vibration, when the string is momentarily stationary. A magnetic pickup produces its peak voltage output when the string is *moving* fastest, which is at the *middle* of the string vibration. The natural unamplified sound of an acoustic guitar is actually produced more by the speed of the string movement driving the top too, so a magnetic pickup *should* sound more natural - the problem is that by being mounted in the soundhole they have to pick up from the wrong part of the string, not at the bridge, so the mix of harmonics is all wrong and they end up sounding too much like an electric guitar.

    Taylor's first version of the Expression system was very clever in that it used magnetic motion sensors in the body, so it should have produced the correct waveform - but for some inexplicable reason they ruined it by also fitting a magnetic *string* sensing pickup under the end of the fingerboard, so the result was an electric-guitar overtone at certain places on the neck. (Not to mention the noise and reliability issues they were very prone to, which is a different problem.)

    The new version does indeed use piezos mounted against the side of the bridge saddle, so it sounds better than a traditional undersaddle pickup because it doesn't produce such a nasty transient attack, but it still has the inherent waveform problem of corresponding to the wrong aspect of the vibration cycle.

    Even the K&K is basically a piezo, even though it's a contact one on the inside of the body so it's not under compression. It doesn't quack, but it does still sound a bit unnatural - I just compared one to a Baggs M80 soundhole pickup mounted in the same guitar, and the Baggs actually sounded more 'acoustic', more dynamic and open-sounding. The K&K sounded quite dry and flat by comparison. It's probably easier to compensate for the wrong harmonics of the magnetic pickup with the EQ in the Baggs pickup than it is to correct the wrong waveform.

    A traditional UST is still best for driving a modelling system like an Aura because that's what they're designed to be given as the basic signal - and unless you deliberately mix in some of the basic pickup sound you're actually not hearing the pickup signal itself directly at all, it's really more like a Variax than a pickup and preamp system.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • FunkfingersFunkfingers Frets: 14324
    Keefy said:
    IIRC Billy Bragg also used to have a consistently bog-awful electric guitar sound too.
    In the early days, Sir William of Braggshire played an Arbiter LP DC Junior copy into a plain vanilla Roland Cube. (All kinds of horrid but it was his trademark sound.) This is what he used on the David Gilmour About Face tour ... until he was booted off.

    Later, came full band arrangements and the Burns Steer. 


    Hijack over.
    Be seeing you.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963
    Funkfingers said:

    In the early days, Sir William of Braggshire played an Arbiter LP DC Junior copy into a plain vanilla Roland Cube. (All kinds of horrid but it was his trademark sound.)
    Worth mentioning that that amp is not what we think of as a Roland Cube now either! It's a very basic analogue solid-state amp - decent if not very inspiring clean sound, horrible onboard overdrive.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • FunkfingersFunkfingers Frets: 14324
    edited December 2019
    ... and the most rinky dink spring reverb tray that I have ever seen. (I had a Cube 60 Chorus for a few months.) It would fit on the trackpad of the average laptop! 
    Be seeing you.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963
    ... and the most risky dink spring reverb tray that I have ever seen. (I had a Cube 60 Chorus for a few months.) It would fit on the trackpad of the average laptop! 
    Same as the one in the Space Echo, I think - tinny tin-can reverb that actually sounds brilliant when combined with tape echo, and is accurately modelled in the RE-20 pedal.

    (Sorry, thread hijack!)

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • RolandRoland Frets: 8592
    Our other guitarist used a pointy Ibanez through the acoustic simulator on his helix the other night and it was more convincing than any piezo I’ve heard. 
    This. Especially if you can make an IR which matches the guitar you’re playing to a suitable acoustic. I think that piezos still have a role, but for me they’ve had their day.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • JalapenoJalapeno Frets: 6378
    Boss AD pedals de-quack piezo pickups nicely, as Timmyo says no excuses these days.  BB has always played with a fairly shrill tone.
    Imagine something sharp and witty here ......

    Feedback
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
Sign In or Register to comment.