In praise of the minor 6 (title amended!;-))

rsvmark

Several months ago, I decided to focus on pushing myself - to learn different solos and individual parts of songs, but to treat each one as an exercise to improve my technique, but also to analyse each piece in terms of understanding note choice, intervals etc and improve my theory knowledge.

I try to tab every part out using yt but accepting that most yt videos are not accurate, and also using software to slow the original track down and isolating the part and get closer. Once analysed I try to understand the key, underlying chord progression and then the individual notes, how they relate to the key, box positions etc.

Quietly smug with myself in that this evening I did a passable stairway to heaven solo at full tempo. Also smug with myself that I recognised all notes were in A minor pentatonic with the addition of a sharp 5.... or actually a flat 6, which is actually one of the 2 additional notes that you add to a minor pentatonic to create the Aeolian scale. 

Interesting that there is a repeated flat 6 used throughout the solo but never a 2nd or B. Also that there is a fair amount of bends to raise the pitch up to the next note. Also that actually I have decided I don’t like his vibrato- which is wholly subjective. His is quite rapid and shallow, and currently I think I prefer slower and wider vibrato.

How did I do?

Danny1969

In Am the 6th is an F and the 5th is an E ..... those are just the primal notes of Am, nothing sharpened or flattened unless I misunderstand you ?

rsvmark

Danny1969 said:

In Am the 6th is an F and the 5th is an E ..... those are just the primal notes of Am, nothing sharpened or flattened unless I misunderstand you ?

I am sure it’s me who has it wrong in terms of how I have written it down and articulated it and probably confusing major and minor scale intervals and don’t understand how to write it correctly. Taking a standard first position on the low E at the 5th fret I get:

First note/root- A
flat 3 - C
forth- D
fifth- E
sharp 5/flat 6 - F
flat 7 - G

What I fail to clarify it’s the repeated additional F with an Am pentatonic? Is that better?

Stuckfast

The F in this context is definitely a flat 6 rather than a sharp 5. And yes that is the Aeolian mode assuming that the missing B is natural rather than flat.

viz

Very good prose!

on the subject of “flat 6”, there are two ways of describing minor scales:


1) with reference to the major scale (which is 12345678). In this case the natural minor, or Aeolian, scale would be 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8. 

So according to this notation Aeolian does indeed have a ‘flat 6’, though we should probably say ‘lowered’ rather than flat, because as Danny says, there is no flat in F; it’s just lowered from the F# that would have been played, were we in A major. 

And Dorian would be 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8.

 

2) not describing all scales relative to major, but describing all scales in terms of intervals:

major has:
 
major 2nd
major 3rd

perfect 4th
perfect 5th
major 6th
major 7th
octave

natural minor has:

major 2nd
minor 3rd
perfect 4th
perfect 5th
minor 6th (not flat 6)
minor 7th
octave

This system is older and is the method taught in classical music. In this system, other scales are described not relative to the major scale but to their respective MAJOR OR NATURAL MINOR scale. So Dorian (which has a major 6th) would be said to have a ‘raised 6th’, as, being a minor scale, it would be compared to natural minor.

So you’re right to call it a flat 6, (NOT A SHARP 5 btw!) because you’re using the first system. But so is Danny when he says the F isn’t flat, or flattened, because he’s using the second system. 

rsvmark

viz said:

Very good prose!

on the subject of “flat 6”, there are two ways of describing minor scales:


1) with reference to the major scale (which is 12345678). In this case the natural minor, or Aeolian, scale would be 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8. 

So according to this notation Aeolian does indeed have a ‘flat 6’, though we should probably say ‘lowered’ rather than flat. 

And Dorian would be 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8.

 

2) not describing all scales relative to major, but describing all scales in terms of intervals:

major has:
 
major 2nd
major 3rd

perfect 4th
perfect 5th
major 6th
major 7th
octave

natural minor has:

major 2nd
minor 3rd
perfect 4th
perfect 5th
minor 6th (not flat 6)
minor 7th
octave

This system is older and is the method taught in classical music. In this system, other scales are described not relative to the major scale but to their respective MAJOR OR NATURAL MINOR scale. So Dorian (which has a major 6th) would be said to have a ‘raised 6th’, as, being a minor scale, it would be compared to natural minor.

So you’re right to call it a flat 6, (NOT A SHARP 5 btw!) because you’re using the first system. But so is Danny when he says the F isn’t flat, or flattened, because he’s using the second system. 

All hail @viz - resident genius. 

rsvmark

All that aside, I very much like the note choice too- it’s good that nice pentatonic thing but every now and then there’s the F included in different ways and consistently avoids the use of a B. So I think it’s kind of more than a pentatonic but less than a full Aeolian.... if that makes sense!;-)

viz

rsvmark said:

All hail @viz - resident genius. 

Lol really not!

viz

rsvmark said:

All that aside, I very much like the note choice too- it’s good that nice pentatonic thing but every now and then there’s the F included in different ways and consistently avoids the use of a B. So I think it’s kind of more than a pentatonic but less than a full Aeolian.... if that makes sense!;-)

Exactly. And aeolian sits in the middle of the 3 diatonic minor scales; it’s not as minor as phrygian (which has a minor 2nd), but it’s more minor than dorian (which has a major 6th)

There are 4 notes that contribute to the tonality of a scale - the 2 3 6 and 7. Subjectively speaking, and IMO only, each of them carries a certain contribution - I’ve written about this elsewhere - and I reckon it’s approximately:

3rd: 50%
6th: 30%
7th: 10%
2nd: 10%

This is by no means definitive but it would mean dorian would be 60% minor, whereas once you add that tragic minor 6th for Aeolian it becomes 90% minor. 

Minor Pentatonic doesn’t express the 2nd or the 6th so it can’t really be scored, but to me, adding that tragic minor 6th really aeolianises the music (or phrygianises it, depending on that absent 2nd). 

So yes, it’s between minor penta and aeolian/phrygian, and closer to them than to minor penta, IMO. 

Good fun!

jpfamps

There are two ways I would look at this.

Are you playing the b6th of the tonic, or are you playing a b6th with respect to the chord underneath it?

As pointed out above the b6th of "Aminor" is F which of course is the root note of F major, so you could simply consider it as a chord tone, and forget about scales.

In a blues environment I don't really like the sound of the b6th over the i chords (ie F over Am), and tend to avoid it.

I also don't find it that useful over a I7 chord.

rsvmark

jpfamps said:

There are two ways I would look at this.

Are you playing the b6th of the tonic, or are you playing a b6th with respect to the chord underneath it?

As pointed out above the b6th of "Aminor" is F which of course is the root note of F major, so you could simply consider it as a chord tone, and forget about scales.

In a blues environment I don't really like the sound of the b6th over the i chords (ie F over Am), and tend to avoid it.

I also don't find it that useful over a I7 chord.

Each to their own @jpfamps - although I would offer that apart from the first lick, the F is used neither as a starting or end note on a lick, so the way I perceive it that it’s a kind of ‘passing’ note for added flavour. 

jpfamps

rsvmark said:

jpfamps said:

There are two ways I would look at this.

Are you playing the b6th of the tonic, or are you playing a b6th with respect to the chord underneath it?

As pointed out above the b6th of "Aminor" is F which of course is the root note of F major, so you could simply consider it as a chord tone, and forget about scales.

In a blues environment I don't really like the sound of the b6th over the i chords (ie F over Am), and tend to avoid it.

I also don't find it that useful over a I7 chord.

Each to their own @jpfamps - although I would offer that apart from the first lick, the F is used neither as a starting or end note on a lick, so the way I perceive it that it’s a kind of ‘passing’ note for added flavour. 

Sure.

However I don't particularly like it as a passing note either, only as a chord tone over a iv chord (Dm in Am) or say in a F.

That's not to say it's "wrong" and you shouldn't play it, it's really a matter of personal preference.

viz

jpfamps said:

rsvmark said:

jpfamps said:

There are two ways I would look at this.

Are you playing the b6th of the tonic, or are you playing a b6th with respect to the chord underneath it?

As pointed out above the b6th of "Aminor" is F which of course is the root note of F major, so you could simply consider it as a chord tone, and forget about scales.

In a blues environment I don't really like the sound of the b6th over the i chords (ie F over Am), and tend to avoid it.

I also don't find it that useful over a I7 chord.

Each to their own @jpfamps - although I would offer that apart from the first lick, the F is used neither as a starting or end note on a lick, so the way I perceive it that it’s a kind of ‘passing’ note for added flavour. 

Sure.

However I don't particularly like it as a passing note either, only as a chord tone over a iv chord (Dm in Am) or say in a F.

That's not to say it's "wrong" and you shouldn't play it, it's really a matter of personal preference.

Or over a V chord in a minor piece, for example the first 2 notes in the sax solo in Baker Street, or as part of an altered chord.

ArchtopDave

Just to muddy the waters a little!!  In the above, you are all referencing scalar usage. However, you need to be aware that the 6th doesn't change between a Major 6th Chord and a Minor 6th Chord; so the only change between A Maj6 and A Min6 is the 3rd being flattened to C, the 6th(F sharp) remains the same for both chords.

viz

ArchtopDave said:

Just to muddy the waters a little!!  In the above, you are all referencing scalar usage. However, you need to be aware that the 6th doesn't change between the chords A Major and A Minor -- only the 3rd is flattened to C, the 6th (F sharp) remains the same for both chords.

A major has an F#; A minor has an F, no?

ArchtopDave

viz said:

ArchtopDave said:

Just to muddy the waters a little!!  In the above, you are all referencing scalar usage. However, you need to be aware that the 6th doesn't change between the chords A Major and A Minor -- only the 3rd is flattened to C, the 6th (F sharp) remains the same for both chords.

A major has an F#; A minor has an F, no?

In terms of the A Major and A Minor Scales - Yes, but No in terms of the Chords A Maj6 and A Min6 - both have F sharp as the 6th in the chord structure.

viz

ArchtopDave said:

viz said:

ArchtopDave said:

Just to muddy the waters a little!!  In the above, you are all referencing scalar usage. However, you need to be aware that the 6th doesn't change between the chords A Major and A Minor -- only the 3rd is flattened to C, the 6th (F sharp) remains the same for both chords.

A major has an F#; A minor has an F, no?

In terms of the A Major and A Minor Scales - Yes, but No in terms of the Chords A Maj6 and A Min6 - both have F sharp as the 6th in the chord structure.

Ah yes fair enough!

sev112

If no B / 2nd is played, what makes us think it’s not A Phrygian? 
- ABbCDEFGA

honest question, not a trick

viz

sev112 said:

If no B / 2nd is played, what makes us think it’s not A Phrygian? 
- ABbCDEFGA

honest question, not a trick

That’s what people have said - it’s pointing to Aeolian or Phrygian. Of course Aeolian is much more common. But yes. 

Danny1969

The B is played towards the end of the solo on the overdubbed guitar ... basically playing the C-B C-A motiff ... does it quite a few times. 

Personally for me I would say the song and the solo is basically in Am, some of the note choice is due to guitar box cliche really I think rather than being meticulously planned out

rsvmark

Danny1969 said:

The B is played towards the end of the solo on the overdubbed guitar ... basically playing the C-B C-A motiff ... does it quite a few times. 

Personally for me I would say the song and the solo is basically in Am, some of the note choice is due to guitar box cliche really I think rather than being meticulously planned out

@danny1969 Oh bugger. I don’t have a note of that description / motif anywhere so my transcription is wrong. I’m not sure of the section you mean. 

At the end of the solo there are 4 short sections of solo guitar which have decent breaks between them. The second of these has a A bent up to a B - hurrah, so we know it’s Aeolian!