How to deal with a band member for the benefit of the band?

paulmapp8306

Odd one, but here goes.

I joined a band in November.  This band had been a 5 piece, with a female singer, bass/drums and 2 guitarists, one of who used a guitar synth system.  Its an 80s band.

They got to gigging in 2 previous incarnations, but not for long.  Both times the singer left - and last time the lead guitarist left within a week as well.

At auditions - they were looking for a guitarist and keys player, but intended to try and cover vocals from the bass/guitarist instead - however post auditions they went with me as a keys player only,  with the possibility of adding a vocalist down the line if it became apparent we needed one..

So - a couple of months down the line, the sets have been either salvaged from the old ones (as a lot were female led vocals) and the shortfall made up with new ones.  Musically were pretty good actually.

The problem....the vocals.  The bass player is OK actually.  hes more than good enough for pubs, but not really good enough for clubs/functions except on 4-5 songs that really suit his voice.  Hes perfectly fine for BVs.  The guitarist isnt as strong, and with the exception of maybe 2 songs where he can carry it hes not up to it.   His guitar parts also suffer....some bits arnt played as he cant sing and play them together, and often his timing goes as he ties to do the two things that have differ rhythms.

The key aim for the band ISNT pub gigs (though Id be happy with that if it came to it) - its clubs/functions with the possibility of 80s weekends as well.

So - me and the drummer feel we DEFINATELY need a front man.  firstly for better vocals, but also as a focal point for the show (which you dont really need sop much in a pub).  The guitarist openly  admits hes not great, and would love to step back from vocals completely and just concentrate on his guitar playing.


the issue is the Bass player..... despite the initial brief of "adding a vocalist" if need be, hes adamant hes not interested in being in a 5 piece, particularly with a male vocalist. 

I have no idea why he feels this way.  It could be financial - BUT they were a 5 piece previously, and aiming at functions/clubs pays more anyway.   It could be he feels the more in the band, the more likely it is to fall apart, which I get.  it could be he doesnt want to start again,  but with a male vocalist we wouldnt have to as we can get by as is (at least while we cut our teeth in pubs) and the new man can slowly take over.  It could be ego.... being the male singer in the other 5 piece line ups maybe he feels getting a male vocalist is a light against his singing.  Theres no place for that ego in a band IMO, and theres no reason why he cant take the lead in the 4-5 songs that really suit him AND take most of the BV duties.

Hes said hes happy to walk away if we want another singer, but it means finding a bassist as well...and the PA is also the bassists.  While I have some PA tops and a mixer (both actually better than his) I use those for keys backline and monitoring vocals for me and the drummer.    using them for the main PA without the bassists to replace what I use mine for now means buying more kit.

I also have to say, he does seem a little precious.  Despite my kit being a level above his hes adamant "Ive played hundereds of gigs with mine and its been fine" - along with "Ive played for 30+ years and its fine".    Well to me,m it may be "fine" but we already have the kit to make it "better" so why wouldnt you??   Same response when I suggested keys through the PA at least, and in clubs everything through the PA (which we could do using my 12 channel as the main desk and sub mixing the drums on his 8 channel).  he says we wont need the volume, but I say its not about volume its about control.

OK - that last bit was a bit of a rant...it just frustrates me.  BUT do we crack on as we are ant hope an agent/landlord or even public comments are "great musically, could do with better vocals though" that might push him into it, do we give it time and see if the vocals improve (I doubt the guitarists will much, and theres the issue with the guitar parts that wont change) - or do we jst say "3 of us feel we need a vocalist, and thats the way it is" and if he walks he walks and we deal with finding a PA or keys back line and a bassist as well.

I would say, theres not point in a vocalist on par with the bassist - while it brings up the level of the guitarists and his vocal ability it doesnt raise the bands ability much.  It will be hard to find a vocalist good enough for where we want to be, given where we are currently - so maybe ploughing on, cutting our teeth and getting tight musically, so were ready to make the jump once vocals are in place isnt a bad idea.



Anyway...LONG post I know, just dont know the best way of going with this.

p90fool

That really is a tough one, but fundamentally, it's all about the vocals for the majority of punters, and it doesn't matter whether it's a function gig, a pub gig or even a free charity gig. 

We have two singers, let's call them J and G. J is female and can really belt it out and has great tone, G is male and does pretty good BVs and sings lead on about a third of the set. 

He's passable on everything we let him do and is actually really good on a couple of numbers, but he thinks (wrongly) that his vocals are on a par with J's and they are not. 

We did a freebie five years ago where J couldn't make it, and as G was keen and it was only a 40 minute unpaid set I set ok, let's go for it. 

Unfortunately it was on the town bandstand, so lots of people saw us who would never normally go and see a band, and two years later people were STILL telling me that my band was ok but the bloke doing the singing was crap, we should get another singer in.

The rather rambling point I'm making here is that it really is all about the singing, so although I've often been tempted in the past into gigging with whichever band member can be pressganged into it, those days are over for me. 

Quite honestly, if you found a great singer/frontperson and the bassist didn't want to be a part of that then you should let him walk anyway, there are plenty who would.

Roland

@p90fool is right. It’s mostly about the singer. The rest of the band are just there to provide the platform for the singer. I also believe that the singer should concentrate on singing. Any playing, even strumming simple guitar rhythm, detracts from the quality of the singing.

If your ambition were to be a pub band then you could hobble on. Many of the pub bands I’ve seen could do with a better singer, but survive with what they’ve got. Since your ambition isn’t pub gigs then you’ve got to tackle the problem. The route is probably the drummer and yourself having conversations with each of the other band members, either to get their support, or to let them know what you are going to do. Then have the conversation with your bassist. If he walks then so be it. The current situation isn’t going to yield what you joined the band for.

John_P

Just be straight and tell them you’d prefer a singer.  If they insist on staying as they are leave, or stay for the experience but look for something else.  Imo It won’t get better and you’ll just get more frustrated.    

paulmapp8306

I did say at a meeting over Christmas I felt we need a proper Male singer, a front man as well as upping the vocal ability.  the Drummer (despite actually mentioning Vocals to me first at a previous rehearsal) said he'd be prepared to give it 6 months and see if it got better - and the guitarist said the same.  Bassist said he didnt want to be part of a 5 piece.

The Guitarist and Bassist have been friends for years, and the drummer has also known them a long time (though not as close) so I think a bit of that was political.  Guitarist did say a couple of days back to me, that if vocals didnt improve a lot, quickly, he'd say we needed one and if the bassist left so be it, so I do think 3 of us are on the same page.

I get the feeling there hoping well get some pub gigs, and so far down the line the bassist wont end up walking, and that if an agent says we need a singer hell actually go along with it (rather than us saying).

paulmapp8306

Oh Ill also say Id b e perfectly happy doing 2-3 pub gigs a month.  I am busy, and havent played in a band for 5 years (family issues) - AND its my first gig as a keys player (normally a guitarist).  If thats what we wanted Id happily trudge on, but if the band folds because THEY want to do clubs/functions and were not achieving it.......

We do need a "goal" and if that needs a vocalist we should get one is my opinion.

Id also say, that while the bassist did work in support acts of bid names in the 70s (Im 52 and the rest are all 10+ years older than me) BUT he has spent the last 30 years in pubs only (even if it has been 10 a month regularly over those 30 years), and I think that is colouring his opinion of whats OK and what isnt for non pub gigs.,

Grunfeld

paulmapp8306 said:

The key aim for the band ISNT pub gigs (though Id be happy with that if it came to it) - its clubs/functions with the possibility of 80s weekends as well....

Anyway...LONG post I know, just dont know the best way of going with this.

I'm getting a vibe that at the moment you are not sure what you want and you're over-thinking with all the stuff about gear etc.

@p90fool seems on the money:  vocals really matter.

If you are supposed to be having fun; have fun.  It's a great thing and totally valid to be able to entertain others and earn a few quid and enjoy yourself.

If you're running a business; run a business.  Get a proper singer, replace anyone who isn't on board, and shell out for a proper PA and maybe someone to run it. [/2p's]

Gulliver

If the majority of the band think a front person is needed, then that's probably the way to go.  If the bass player isn't keen on being in a 5-piece - sounds like he's either concerned about how much money he'll make from it (assuming it's an equal split, a change of 5%)  or his ego makes him think he should be fronting the band. 

Perhaps all have a conversation and mention that to get the sort of work you want, the vocals have to be of a really high calibre - does he really think he's up to it, or is he prepared to put the work in to bring his voice up to the required level? 

Maybe he's content with doing the pub scene - in which case you may need 2 projects, one 4-piece with him singing for pubs, one with a front person and new bassplayer for functions?

Danny1969

If you want to get the well paid gigs, like club, corp and wedding gigs then basically everyone in the band needs to be very good and the singer needs to be excellent. 
We've just basically sacked anyone in my lot over the  years who wasn't up to scratch. Some of those were friends ... it's not an easy thing to do but it's gotta be done. 

In regard to sound, yeah you need professional PA equipment and desk and preferably a decent sound engineer who can show you in the best light. 
If the bass player won't accept taking on a proper singer then your always gonna struggle to get into the decent paying league 

Tex Mexico

Seems you're not keen on the bass player, as the only downsides you've mentioned of his potential departure are the necessity to replace him and his gear.

It seems you've made your mind up that the vocals are unlikely to improve, as as other people have said here a functions band without a charismatic and competent frontman are a non-starter (and God knows I've seen a few).

I don't think you're at a point where you're wondering if these issues need to be fixed, but rather how they can be fixed, as it seems you're fairly convinced that a vocalist is the way forward. I think you're probably right. The issue is it sounds like the bass player leaving as a result of this might potentially break up the band (with you carrying the can for it). So my question to you is:

Are you already looking for another band to join?

paulmapp8306

lol - no.  Just learned two sets worth in 6 weeks for this one, and it took a couple of years to find something I was interested in in the first place.


But - if your really interested,  heres a link to stuff we recorded this week.  Only Vocals through PA - everything else is in the room.  Recorded on a phone with a Shure MV88+ mic attached.  Levels are off (its why we recorded it, to see what song to song levels were like, and in song sound change levels) - so you can kind of discount that.

Its more about the vocals.  Both sing, the better vocals are the bassists - the more gravelly full ones.  the more "melodic" but less projected (and wavering) vocals are the guitarists - who as I say really wants to not sing anyway.

 https://soundcloud.com/user-75335753/sets/live-rehearsals-21-jan-2020?fbclid=IwAR3rRZZl_Xsf8EXbYuU6BoW7h7UgCcaZXrFjcsD9jRA7VaUlHmf-jY74fYw

Lots of work to do even instrumentally - but this was the first run through of the set (without stopping) and only 6 weeks in (really as there were 3 weeks over Christmas we didnt meet). 
 

Even eliminating the errors in playing, - sorting out starts, finishes, in song transitions (which we wernt too bothered about when learning the songs - it was more about can we do it rather than being bang on at that point) - and fine tuning sounds and levels Id be borderline about taking it into pubs.   Maybe that me being too critical maybe not.

BUT - while Musically I think we definitely can get to those better paid venues (every time we play it improves quite a bit - and were all technically decent when NOT trying to sing/play at the same time), vocally is where Im dubious, and vocally it hasnt improved much in the time we have been playing.  Definitely wouldnt take that any higher than bog standard pubs.

Please tell me if Im wrong, or if you think its possible to improve enough with what we have - it might just be me.

Roland

The singer doesn’t have the range or power that a lot of that material needs. Power of Love was one of the best. He was OK for the verse and chorus, but the bridge was too high for him. The song won’t transpose down because the guitar part won’t work. 

For me that would be get a proper singer and frontman, or don’t waste your time.

TheBigDipper

I'm blessed with a dull voice and don't work at singing enough to have anything more than a limited range. So I definitely couldn't do much better than your chappie on Addicted To Love. But I would be aware that I'm singing flat on some notes. Is he? And I don't mean the notes where he tries to go high, moving from chest to head voice and it's out of range because he's sabotaged himself. I mean the notes that are in chest voice range but he's not quite hitting the right pitch. Just slightly flat. 

Sorry - I know I'm being negative, and I'm really not an expert (as some singers on here might now be able to testify)  - but you did ask...  :-{ 

paulmapp8306

I did, and so far comments mirror my own thoughts, so I'm not being picky just realistic.

hollywoodrox

I would go and see you, be good to get a vocalist sorted out , male or female  if they can sing brilliantly . 

Tex Mexico

I mean, and please take this in the spirit of constructive criticism, that recording shows that the bass player's vocal abilities are not that distant from the rest of the band's chops. There are performance problems there beyond lack of rehearsal.

Granted, punters are more likely to pick up on a singers general mediocrity than e.g. a drummer's, but (and again I'm not setting out to be harsh) the lead vocals don't stand out as a weaker link than anything else.

A friend of mine once said "covers bands are either great or rubbish, there's never any middle-ground", meaning that unless you're amazing, you're only ever underwhelming. My experience has yet to prove him wrong.

Tex Mexico

Again I'm not trying to be harsh. I think what I'm trying to say is that the bass player's vocals might not be the problem you think it is.

paulmapp8306

@Tex Mexico 

Fair enough - care to elaborate where the other issues are. 

The guitars levels were off - clean was too loud, dirty was too quiet, and in places he wasnt great because he was trying to sing (lead or backing).  aI know what he can do when not trying to sing as well - so Im not overly worried at this point about that.

Any feedback is welcome, not just vocally.  if there are issues just as relevant then I want to here what you think they are, so they can be addressed (if possible).

Tex Mexico

Okay, so your drummer is just about functional, as in he can play a 4/4 kick/snare more or less in time. Unfortunately his kit is out of tune, his touch is loose and he has no flair, finesse, groove or power. This is not a drummer so much as a man who owns a drumkit. I'm a better drummer and I am not a drummer. Does he think he's a good drummer?

The drums being the foundation of any rock band, that's not off to a good start. Then the guitar playing is hesitant, not in an unrehearsed way but in an out-of-depth way. In a rock band the guitar should lead with brash confidence, not fade in and out of the background with shaky strumming. Listen to the chorus of Adams' Run To You, then listen to the guitar in your version. Is your guy afraid he'll break something?

And then, yes, the vocals are bad. But not noticeably worse than the drums or guitar. In this context I can see why Mr. bassist isn't more embarrassed about butchering leads.

In the plus column, your keys were solid. Nothing wrong there. So I ask again: why are you putting time into this when you could do better?

Again, I know this sounds super harsh but you are asking for advice and feedback to support a semi-pro project. My advice to you is that your partners in this venture do not have the required musical skill or self-awareness to perform a covers act to a high enough standard to make it worthwhile, so you should put your talents to better use elsewhere. I would say this to anyone planning to go into business with people who so obviously lack competence. I'm sure they're lovely guys, but objectively they are not good musicians.

I know some people's take on this will be that I should keep quiet and let you get on with it, but sincerely, speaking as a musician, a producer, a sound engineer and an events promoter, the live entertainment circuit does not need another four blokey-blokes farting out a lacklustre version of White Wedding for beer money. It's disrespectful to paying audiences, it's disrespectful to serious performers on the circuit, and it's disrespectful to the original artists. You say the goal is to skip pubs and go straight for paid functions and "80s weekends", but I think if you try to get paid bookings at this stage you'll get yourselves blacklisted.

Anyway, as before this is nothing personal and I really hope you do find a satisfactory outcome.

ToneControl

I've been to a karaoke night in my local corner pub with at least 3 vocalists who are much, much better, personally I think the vocals in that recording were BV level at best.

My uncle used to be the entertainment sec at working mens clubs, and they get loads of back-tracking-mp3 solo singers who are much more convincing. I mention this because it's the benchmark to hit really.

You need a real vocalist. If they can play an instrument too, that's fine, but the main criteria is the vocals

paulmapp8306

Saw an 80s set at a club last night.  Solo singer with backing tracks, then a band (I say band ....) who were warming up for the Haven season.  Female singer, bass, drums, guitar.  All keys were backing tracks as were second guitar and BVs.

Very Pro sound, but boring as hell to me.  The Material was literally Power ballad after power ballad - no light or shade int he sets.  The musicians were going through the motions, no energy (except the vocalist) or passion.  No i prov or working a song that went down well.   If I turned to the bar it may as well have been a DJ.

Thats not for me, as a player OR as a punter (Ive been disappointing so many times on holiday with the live bands), but most people are more than happy, and thats what gets the big money.

Having said all that, I totally agree about the Vocals.