How to deal with a band member for the benefit of the band?

ESBlonde

Well i went to a seaside town at the weekend and saw two pub bands. Conclusion, the punters want the song/singer and the rest is gravy. I'll pass no further critiscm because they were gigging and I was not.

The thing with bands is they need a driven individual to arrange people/rehersals/get gigs/provide some gear/Van? Often as not this is not the most gifted musician, but they are the glue that makes the whole thing function over a period of time. It could be that thier ego means they want to sing too.

So possibly everyone else has to work harder, switch the key and do harmonies while they play to make the unit/song sound good. This formula has worked well for a huge number of bands so we know it works. BUT if the club function scene is important, why not have two bands? The first as above that covers all the pub gigs you want. The second is the same lineup plus a solo singer, you know the kind that can really sing/interact and have plenty of work but miss the comararderie of a live band. It would take some work but you could do better paying functions and all get more money while still having Mr Bass to do his thing as often as he can organise gigs in pubs. Having a different name of the band or using Fred Fidgett and the band Candy for functions and just Candy for the pubs would avoid people thinking you work cheap in pubs why is my wedding £2k?

EricTheWeary

ESBlonde said:

Well i went to a seaside town at the weekend and saw two pub bands. Conclusion, the punters want the song/singer and the rest is gravy. I'll pass no further critiscm because they were gigging and I was not.

The thing with bands is they need a driven individual to arrange people/rehersals/get gigs/provide some gear/Van? Often as not this is not the most gifted musician, but they are the glue that makes the whole thing function over a period of time. It could be that thier ego means they want to sing too.

So possibly everyone else has to work harder, switch the key and do harmonies while they play to make the unit/song sound good. This formula has worked well for a huge number of bands so we know it works. BUT if the club function scene is important, why not have two bands? The first as above that covers all the pub gigs you want. The second is the same lineup plus a solo singer, you know the kind that can really sing/interact and have plenty of work but miss the comararderie of a live band. It would take some work but you could do better paying functions and all get more money while still having Mr Bass to do his thing as often as he can organise gigs in pubs. Having a different name of the band or using Fred Fidgett and the band Candy for functions and just Candy for the pubs would avoid people thinking you work cheap in pubs why is my wedding £2k?

I know that when RocknrollDave was on here his band went out under two names, one for pub gigs and the other for weddings/ corporate. Different expectations, different pay scales if the same musicians.

 Just to reiterate some of the defence of this band that we are only listening to a rough demo which doesn't necessarily mean they were on form that day or giving it their all and takes no account of what the band are like live. I have certainly seen youtube clips from gigs I've paid decent money to attend and I can spot some very pitchy singing, mistimed solos,etc, all of which I was cheerfully oblivious to on the night, carried away by the performance and the atmosphere. And, it's rock'n'roll, it's not a recital. 
You can be entertaining and good musicians or you can just be one or the other. You can be neither but still get to play in front of other people, just not very many other people. It's all fine, it's just getting everyone in the band to understand where you fit and on the small bits of evidence we have ( the OP, the demo) it just seems like not everyone in the band is being realistic.   

midiman1962

Here's my 4 pennyworth...

Read some of the comments and then:-

A.Just listened to the 4 songs that i do myself in my 80's segway, where i'm the Guitar/Vox

Mental as anything was the best

Vocals were just passable with some harmony bv's

Keys on this were good btw

Malice had a format error as you concluded.

Band sounded ok - vocal was passable and would be be better with more "aggression"

hungry like the wolf

pitch and tuning issues at the start - however there were some potential decent harmonies

couldn't quite work out whether the drummer was playing to the sequencer via click but it sounded ok

white wedding

a difficult song to sing as its very low at the start

the band dropped down to give him a chance but could drop further down in volume - not the best song

******

B.of the others:-

Power of Love

Suprisingly the song suited the voice - thought this was get awayable

The walk of life

thought was passable

To cut a long story

Song didn't suit the voice but you got through it with an authentic 80's sounds from the keys

Dancing in the dark

very passable

maneater

the vocal was strained but actually sounded fair

My thoughts would be that work on the bv's would help things, and general tightening of the sound as others have alluded to

As a lot have commented about this recording , one point that is being missed is that we are only "listening to the audio"

presumably you have a lighting "set up" ? to add to the show

finally , the addition of keyboards does "lift things" a lot

also , the more i listened to the songs the more i "warmed" to it which i found a bit weird....

This act could go well in Pubs - i realise that's not the aim but other people have commented about the level required to progress higher so i dont need to...

The other thing is that you've asked the question on a forum dedicated to guitarists ....they aren't a representative "sample" of your audience who are in the main non musical punters

sw67

I am not going to comment on the recording but i know of 3 bands i have shared a charity night with or got to know over the years that have made the jump into weddings / corporate gigs. What they all have in common is a fantastic singer and showmanship. They also have constant line up changes and its more of a job than a passion.

Go for it if if thats what you want to do

paulmapp8306

@midiman1962 ;

Drummer was trying to match tempo to the arpegiator (not sequenced) as he also does on planet earth and echo beach (in the other set).

That's not permanent.  Hes looking at a box he can pre program bpms to to provide a click for him on these songs.

hollywoodrox

paulmapp8306 said:

That may be part of the rehearsal not live thing mind.

And I am actually really enjoying it at this point, apart from the frustrations the others arnt "finessing" the sounds and parts like Im trying top.  Its my era - and I Love almost every song we play.

I really enjoyed working out the sounds, and the parts - working how to try to play little bits as well as the main parts without messing the main parts.

This is something i recorded, learning a song they wanted to play, that I adore, only to find they couldnt do their bits (at least not yet).  

Again a couple of errors - but this was a sunday night, and I started working out the sounds Fir night, then the parts sat.  Keys are all me, backing is minus the key parts from the interweb.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXhUrUZT1ho

Omg !!!!! As I was waiting for you to start playing, I was wondering what song , and I thought I bet he’s going to play “wouldn’t it be good to be in your shoes “ then you started playing it. That is one I’m working on in bits at the moment . Little arpeggiated riffs in the verse . One of my patreons did a version of it for lead guitar that’s ace . Well done mate. A treat to listen to . Also diggin hungry like the wolf, that’s also on my list of 80s pop . I’m more into the rock side but am learning some pop ones that are too good to be ignored. I like playing “died in your arms tonight by cutting crew too”

paulmapp8306

I/we play that too.  One of my favourite 80s songs. 

Really pleased with my patches for it as well.

jpfamps

p90fool said:

He's passable on everything we let him do and is actually really good on a couple of numbers, but he thinks (wrongly) that his vocals are on a par with J's and they are not. 

It never ceases to amaze me how lacking in insight many people who play in bands are.

Is it that people really can't tell what's good and what isn't? 

What sort of music does he listen to?

paulmapp8306

This is true both ways.  Ive seen REALLY good singers who dont sing enough because they dont think there good enough as well.

ICBM

paulmapp8306 said:

This is true both ways.  Ive seen REALLY good singers who dont sing enough because they dont think there good enough as well.

The singer in my band is constantly putting herself down for being crap, and she's never been anything less than brilliant.

p90fool

jpfamps said:

p90fool said:

He's passable on everything we let him do and is actually really good on a couple of numbers, but he thinks (wrongly) that his vocals are on a par with J's and they are not. 

It never ceases to amaze me how lacking in insight many people who play in bands are.

Is it that people really can't tell what's good and what isn't? 

What sort of music does he listen to?

He listens to all sorts really but seems to like 80s pop more than anything else.

Which accounts for a lot now I think about it, if Phil Oakey and those two disco bints he hung around with are your vocal yardstick then you're in trouble. 

WiresDreamDisasters

Paul you're too good for this band. They're all shit.

paulmapp8306

Ha HA - blunt...

Did a "field" recording into an 8 track tonight, with guide vocals.  Sounded better actually, though yet to be mixed.

On the + front, I know a young (well younger than me) lady Ive sang with before (who is already in two other projects) who is very keen to come join me again, and in an 80s band (she loves that era - which I knew).   3 of us are up for a meet/greet/trial, but we havent mentioned it to the bassist yet.

The guitarist did slip in conversation "if a decent female vocalist falls in our lap wed be silly to turn her down" (Id already spoken to him about his reservations there and hes actually up for it as she can sing 75% of our set in original key so we dont have to change anything we have) - and the bassist replied "that would be different", though hes not sure about a female singing male led songs (though its perfectly acceptable for him to sing Echo beach and Brass in Pocket so go figure.).

So - we just have to lave is a few weeks so it doesnt look live weve investigated it behind his back - then hopefully bring pippa in.  Not the same style of course (this is a US country/roots/swamp type band) - but she sings in a 3 piece "40s" close harmony trio as well - but this is pip.

 https://www.facebook.com/cottonmouthblues/videos/2074746069287265/
https://www.facebook.com/cottonmouthblues/videos/1188618307904658/

And harmonies 

https://www.facebook.com/cottonmouthblues/videos/2212699332325595/


How do you think we stand if pippa joins for 75% lead and 25% backing ??

guitartango

Hi Paul 

I thought the vocals were awful and he murdered each song (sorry). With the right vocalist your band could sound like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=39&v=VBZqeeArVPY&feature=emb_logo  

This is my mates band, who are fully booked throughout the year

Jalapeno

ICBM said:

In that case I suggest that you and the drummer look for a new band... sometimes things just don't work, and this sounds like one of them.

Take the guitarist too

steven70

If you enjoy doing it and it is pleasing to your ears, carry on.
If you don't enjoy doing or it is not pleasing to you, try and change it or try and do something else.
Second guessing yourself on the basis of other people's opinions is missing the point of making music.

paulmapp8306

I love the music, Im enjoying playing the songs - which is why I want to stick with it if I can make it work.

Musically doing things wrong (either bass lines, guitar parts, harmonies) when theres no reason not to do them right (ie you can actually play the lines but just havent learned it properly) along with better vocalists being available but some band member not acknowledging we need them - that frustrates me.


 

Tex Mexico

paulmapp8306 said:

I love the music, Im enjoying playing the songs - which is why I want to stick with it if I can make it work.

Musically doing things wrong (either bass lines, guitar parts, harmonies) when theres no reason not to do them right (ie you can actually play the lines but just havent learned it properly) along with better vocalists being available but some band member not acknowledging we need them - that frustrates me.


 

I'm gonna weigh in here once more and then I'll shut up, but where I was quite specific before, here I'm just gonna make some general comments about This Sort of Thing and you can take from it what you like.

You're 100% correct to be frustrated by people who do things wrong when there's no reason not to do them right. I've led maybe a half-dozen bands in the past twenty years, and the number one reason I've fired people was not ego clashes or being a drunk or hitting on my girlfriend, it's half-arsing stuff. I flatly refuse to put my time into associating with musicians who aren't prepared to put in as much work as I am.

Over time I've become less and less tolerant of it as well, because the one thing I know for sure is that you can't make someone care - and caring at this stage of the game is literally the only reason someone will put the effort in. If someone's a bad musician when they could be a good musician, the only conclusion is that being a musician just isn't all that important to them.

I've been in rooms with people who had the potential to be world-class musos and yet couldn't be bothered to learn two songs a month. I've been in bands with people whose natural talent would turn most people green with envy but who couldn't be arsed to practice three hours one night a week. So I'm a little more forgiving of people who were never destined for greatness, but that doesn't mean it's okay for them to fart our a quarter-arsed set and expect that people should even watch, let alone pay for it.

So I'll say it again, my advice to you is that being in a band with people who aren't interested in making the band as good as it can possibly be, whether that's because they won't put in the basic graft or it's because they refuse to hire someone better to do the things they're failing at, is a colossal waste of your time.

I'll wrap up with a bit of Confucian wisdom, which goes something like "if you're the smartest guy in the room, you're in the wrong room". The people you play with should have something good to teach you, either directly or just by inspiring you to be as good as them. Your bandmates should make you feel lucky to be included, not cause you to go vent on a messageboard. Think carefully about how much person effort you're prepared to put into trying to drag these guys merely up to your level, and whether your time might not be better spent around guys who make you work hard to be good enough.

Anyway, best of luck with everything.

rico

From what I heard in the Soundcloud demos, my first thought was the lack of groove/power from the drummer. Guitars were very timid, vocals were typical geezer pub rock style but the keys were decent. 

The first things I notice when I go to gigs are the groove or synchronicity of the rhythm section and the swagger and skill of the singer. 

I’m afraid that wasn’t conveyed in those recordings. Life is too short to be involved with pedestrians and those that are resistant to change or those that are deluded. 

monquixote

Just had a quick listen to the tracks and I agree with the sentiment expressed that the singer sounds like someone getting up at a jam night not good enough to front a band by a long shot. 

Also the rhythm section is lacking in groove I don't rate the drummer. 

Decent keyboard players are gold dust, you shouldn't settle for anything less than a great band.