2 - 5- 1 ......?????

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DominicDominic Frets: 16012
okay ,so the standard progression or maybe 6251 but rather than the typical modulating/travelling Jazzy standard what else can you do with this ?
I 'm looking to embellish the rhythm side of things not so much the playing the changes over it
 little chord runs between / fill-out tricks / suspensions 
Any tips ?
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    Do you know about rootless chords?

    in C major:

    Dm7: DFAC
    G7: GBDF
    Cmaj7: CEGB

    Try playing some of the chords without the root but including the 9:

    Dm7: FACE
    G7: BDFA
    Cmaj7: EGBD

    You will see that those 3 rootless chords are known by other names.

    FACE is Fmaj7
    BDFA is Bm7b5
    EGBD is Em7

    So over any

    ii chord play a maj7 chord off the 3rd of the chord
    V chord play a min7flat5 off the minor 3rd of the chord
    I chord play a min7 off the 3rd of the chord

    ------------------
    Another thing to try is using diminished chords.

    This can be quite deep but try these:

    Over the ii chord try a diminished 7th chord a semitone below (so for Dmin7 try Db diminished 7)

    Over the V chord try a diminished chord a semitone below, a semitone above or with the same root note.
    So for a G7 try Gb diminished 7, G diminished 7 or Ab diminished 7 (just one, I don't suggest trying all 3)

    Over the I chord try a diminished chord a semitone below, a semitone above or with the same root note.
    For Cmaj7 try B diminished 7, Db diminished 7 or C diminished 7
    I particularly like Cdim7 -> C as an approach chord.

    A suggested progression:

    Dm7 / / Gbdim7 | G7 / / / | Cmaj7 / Cdim7 Cmaj7 | Dbdim7 / Dm7 / | Abdim7 / G7 Abdim7 G7 | Cmaj7 / CDim7 Cmaj7 ||
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  • DominicDominic Frets: 16012
    Thanks....I'm already into using the diminished substitutions (watched your posted vid which helped a lot ) but I have not really investigated the rootless chords.
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  • Tritone substitutions! Swap any dominant 7 chord for one 3 whole tones away. So instead of:

     | Am7 | D7 | Gmaj7 |

    You get 

    | Am7 | Ab7 | Gmaj7 |

    Because Ab is three whole tones (6semitones) above or below D.

    Lovely stuff!
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    No worries.
    Like anything with jazz you don't want too stick to one technique for too long- so deploying rootless chords for an entire progression might sound weird.
    But interjecting a couple of those ideas over a regular II V I can work.
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    Dominic said:
    (watched your posted vid which helped a lot ) 
    This one is good too, and talks about rootless voicings.


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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    edited February 2020
    Here's some interesting chord voicings with the root on top, 5th on the bottom. (5th-3rd-7th-1st)

    (I posted these in the Chord Thread too.)


    CMaj7th
    G E B C
    (5th-3rd-7th-1st)

    So, if you are adventurous, for a CMajor 2-5-1, you could use:
    A F C D (Dmin7)
    D B F G (G7)
    G E B C (CMaj7)

    Like any chord inversion, you can move these through each mode of a Major scale.

    Example voicing using the (5th-3rd-7th-1st) of each mode of C Major:

    Ionian is G E B C (CMaj7)
    Dorian is A F C D (Dmin7)
    Phrygian is B G D E (Emin7)
    Lydian is C A E F (FMaj)
    Mixolydian is  D B F G (G7)
    Aeolian is E C G A (Amin7)
    Locrian is F D A B (Bmin7)









    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • vizviz Frets: 10645
    edited February 2020
    Try this 251 in G, which is Am, D, G

    57555x
    45454x
    35443x

    (the 2nd chord is actually a tritone sub - Ab7 - though you can make it a proper V chord (D7b9) by leaving out the bottom note)



    Or this one in C, which is Dm, G, C. 

    x5355x
    x4344x
    x3223x

    The 2nd chord is again a tritone sub for the V chord. You can make it a V by adding a G (3rd fret on the low E string) with your thumb. 

    You can do nice solos by playing Am penta over the Dm, Bbm penta over the G, and Bm penta over the C. So your pentatonics just slip upwards a semitone each chord change. 

    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    edited February 2020
    I've played many Jazz standards by just playing the 3rd and 7th notes of a chord, the bass player usually like this method because it gives them more space. Most soloists like this method because without the 5th in the chord there is a bit more ambiguity to the chord sound. You can usually play the whole song in in one position, if you know the notes on the fretboard and it's a good way to get to know the fretboard if you don't.
    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    Simple example for playing 3rds and 7ths on a 2-5-1.

    Dmin7 has 3rd and 7th notes F C.
    G7 has notes has 7th and 3rd notes F B.
    CMaj7 has 3rd and 7th notes E B.

    So, I'd play the following two notes as chords:
    | F C |F B|  E B| E B|

    Theoretically speaking, playing two notes simultaneously is called dyads.

    The intervals are a perfect fifth (FC) moving to a tritone (FB) resolving to another perfect fifth (EB).

    This seems easy enough, but to play a whole song you need to know the 3rds and 7ths of each chord.


    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • vizviz Frets: 10645
    GuyBoden said:
    Simple example for playing 3rds and 7ths on a 2-5-1.

    Dmin7 has 3rd and 7th notes F C.
    G7 has notes has 7th and 3rd notes F B.
    CMaj7 has 3rd and 7th notes E B.

    So, I'd play the following two notes as chords:
    | F C |F B|  E B| E B|

    Theoretically speaking, playing two notes simultaneously is called dyads.

    The intervals are a perfect fifth (FC) moving to a tritone (FB) resolving to another perfect fifth (EB).

    This seems easy enough, but to play a whole song you need to know the 3rds and 7ths of each chord.


    Do you have any vid examples of this? Not just 251 but over a jazz standard? That’d be awse to see. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • viz said:
    GuyBoden said:
    Simple example for playing 3rds and 7ths on a 2-5-1.

    Dmin7 has 3rd and 7th notes F C.
    G7 has notes has 7th and 3rd notes F B.
    CMaj7 has 3rd and 7th notes E B.

    So, I'd play the following two notes as chords:
    | F C |F B|  E B| E B|

    Theoretically speaking, playing two notes simultaneously is called dyads.

    The intervals are a perfect fifth (FC) moving to a tritone (FB) resolving to another perfect fifth (EB).

    This seems easy enough, but to play a whole song you need to know the 3rds and 7ths of each chord.


    Do you have any vid examples of this? Not just 251 but over a jazz standard? That’d be awse to see. 
    Have a look for 'guide tone comping' on YouTube, there are a few it looks like. 
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  • vizviz Frets: 10645
    viz said:
    GuyBoden said:
    Simple example for playing 3rds and 7ths on a 2-5-1.

    Dmin7 has 3rd and 7th notes F C.
    G7 has notes has 7th and 3rd notes F B.
    CMaj7 has 3rd and 7th notes E B.

    So, I'd play the following two notes as chords:
    | F C |F B|  E B| E B|

    Theoretically speaking, playing two notes simultaneously is called dyads.

    The intervals are a perfect fifth (FC) moving to a tritone (FB) resolving to another perfect fifth (EB).

    This seems easy enough, but to play a whole song you need to know the 3rds and 7ths of each chord.


    Do you have any vid examples of this? Not just 251 but over a jazz standard? That’d be awse to see. 
    Have a look for 'guide tone comping' on YouTube, there are a few it looks like. 



    Cheers dude!

    But also @GuyBoden it would be lovely to see / hear some of your examples!

    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    edited February 2020
    viz said:
    viz said:
    GuyBoden said:
    Simple example for playing 3rds and 7ths on a 2-5-1.

    Dmin7 has 3rd and 7th notes F C.
    G7 has notes has 7th and 3rd notes F B.
    CMaj7 has 3rd and 7th notes E B.

    So, I'd play the following two notes as chords:
    | F C |F B|  E B| E B|

    Theoretically speaking, playing two notes simultaneously is called dyads.

    The intervals are a perfect fifth (FC) moving to a tritone (FB) resolving to another perfect fifth (EB).

    This seems easy enough, but to play a whole song you need to know the 3rds and 7ths of each chord.


    Do you have any vid examples of this? Not just 251 but over a jazz standard? That’d be awse to see. 
    Have a look for 'guide tone comping' on YouTube, there are a few it looks like. 



    Cheers dude!

    But also @GuyBoden it would be lovely to see / hear some of your examples!


    Comping using 3rds and 7ths on Jazz standards has been done many times by players that are much better than me.

    Here's a Youtube video of a good player using 3rds and 7ths:


    The etudes in the book by "Jimmy Wyble - The Art of two line Improvisation" is a very advance use of two note comping. Have a look on youtube for playing examples:






    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • I've disappeared down this particular rabbit hole rather deeply since I started playing with Adrian Ingram a little. He's a genius at getting the most out of simple ideas - like using triads to create comping riffs that provide interest under the soloist. 

    For example, over a G7 you could slide between a Dm and Em triad to create variation. On So What you can hear a G and F triad in the head over a Dm chord.

    Also - learn as many possible voicing options! Appreciate the difference between open and close voicing. Open voiced are quite common on guitar, close voiced less so as they are awkward. One of Adrian's ii V I choices includes rootless close voiced chords for all three to create a descending chord line:

    x x 10 9 8 7   Am9
    x x 10 9 7 5.   D9 
    x x 9 7 7 5.     Gmaj9

    Also handy in tunes with descending iiVIs like Miles' Tune Up you can create smooth motion between the voicing, retaining some notes while others move. Easy on piano but a pain in the backside on guitar.

    x x 17 16 15 14 Em9
    x x 17 16 14 12 A9
    x x 16 14 14 12 Dmaj9

    x x 15 14 13 12 Dm9 
    x x 15 14 12 10 G9
    x x 14 12 12 10 Cmaj9

    etc

    Check out Barry Galbraith - he taught Hank Garland how to comp jazz, also Chuck Wayne chord method and the Joe Pass chord book. The Mickey Baker books are good. And don't forgot - Johnny Smith - the chords above where some of his ideas, Holdsworth took quite a bit of inspiration from Mr Smith.

    Good luck!
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  • joeWjoeW Frets: 459
    I find using chord inversions a nice way to add movement to a stationary comping section.  But for an excellent course on embellishing comping with 2 5’s / tritone subs etc i really rate the truefire course by Fareed Haque the jazz comping survival guide. the first half is entirely about embellishing the blues so is relevant outside of a jazz standards use. 
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